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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 7:23 AMBrilliant writer and brilliant, truthful rant.
Harlan Ellison makes me happy.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 9:37 AMcan we convince the public schools to work this into high school curriculum?
man, more people need to hear this!
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:23 PMThanks for sharing that.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 10:00 PMYep girl..you know we have seen it our area here for sure! We could replace writer with many of the artistic areas and it works.
Phoenix
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 9:37 AMThat is brilliant. Thanks for sharing!
I sent it to my boyfriend, who is a musician, and he loved it as well. He's a performer who has a real draw in our community and he's often asked to do events for "exposure"... when he'd actually be the one drawing people in! Funny how that works.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 11:54 AMNigel Lythgoe, executive producer of Fox's So You Think You Can Dance, said in a recent interview: "That's just the way of a dancer: undervalued, underpaid, and overworked."
www.ew.com/ew/article/0...01864,00.html
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 12:31 PMYeah, Brad. Let's not prove Nigel Lythgoe right. Let's think twice about cutting people breaks and working for free.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 12:50 PMGreat post.
It's tough though, where I live if you don't take it for nothing or little to nothing, there are 10 other people/troupes that will. I keep working at creating opportunities outside of the normal belly dance places because that seems like the only way to find gigs that actually do pay and appreciate the artist.
Furthermore, it seems like WE are the worst at it! How many festivals, workshop/shows, haflas - put on by dancers that charge money for entrance - will we attend this year that do not pay anything? -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 2:37 PMHey cutie...yep...I am one that will dance at a bellydance event for free (I do fully admit that for sure).
To me this is supporting our own art and each other.....not really being taken advantage of by clubs or people calling. I feel it is important to support each other's events and keep it rolling. Also being a person that puts on 4 larger shows/haflas a year....I know that it is impossible to pay everyone without making the tickets so expensive that no one will come....so to me the bellydance events are different than a club or venue trying to get you to dance for free. I hope that makes sense....I wish I could pay every dancer at my event but there are alot of expenses involved and they are more community related. My one rule with bellydance events is -- no performer ever pays and I refunded money when a performer did not know to not pay.....
I do feel that there are somethings that just cannot pay and then it is a question of do I really want to do it, am I hurting any other artist/dancer, and am I being taken advantage of? That is how I decide and I do very little for free....really mainly bellydance event stuff to support my buddies.....and I have fun at those completely.....
And you nailed exactly what I do too...I have gone outside of the typical bellydance venues to create paid gigs for myself. It is fun too....get to be more creative.
Phoenix -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 3:30 PMPhoenix,
I'm with you on this.
There are paid venues for professionals. Restaurants, parties, festivals etc.
There are countless haflas and opportunities for people to perform who wouldn't get many chances to perform (or who prefer to steer clear of that arena for various reasons). These parties are essentially belly dancers throwing a party for themselves and quite often there are a good number of student performers and up and coming performers. Do student ballerinas expect to get paid for their recitals? No. In fact they often pay a lot to participate.
Event organizers put A LOT of time in- I believe they deserve compensation. Professional performers deserve compensation, although often in the spirit of supporting the community are happy to help out the local organizers with belly dance community events. The BIG events - there are SO many costs involved- no one is cleaning house with them from what I understand. In fact there have been discussions on the hourly breakdown and really many are getting paid peanuts for their time.
Locally there are some events that are able to pay the headliners and the rest of the performers dance for free (with no door fee of course). Honestly in my mind there are organizers who do SO much- teaching students really well, organizing events, sponsoring people from out of town (or country). I believe it's right to support them as they are supporting the art.
I'm happy to "give back" to the community. It's the owners and private parties who pay my professional rates.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 3:43 PMDitto what Phoenix and Samira have said. Although...just to add, almost every organizer I know really goes to great pains to pay whenever possible. I know that for the Vegas Intensive, we find a way to compensate everyone. If it isn't a cash payment, then it is with tickets or workshops.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 4:21 PMI think we need to put this out there to everyone we know who is NOT an artist! I mean, convert the artists, yes, but why not convert everyone to this means of thinking! -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 3:42 AM
I'm totally agree with him!!
All True what he says!!!
Artist also must buy food,Also must pay to rent,also pay and pay......
Thanks for sharing this video!!!
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 9:20 AMSeriously, Kisaya! I see this "selling yourself at a discount" trend in a lot of places. -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 3:36 PMKisaya, you are so right. I know a few dancers who have info on their websites on why pricing is the way it is. Other suggestions? -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 10:15 AMThe "giving back to the community" point is nice; but I hope dancers who choose not to participate in these events that do not pay or do not pay correctly aren't seen as selfish ; )
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 10:17 AMThe "giving back to the community" point is nice; but I hope dancers who choose not to participate in these events that do not pay or do not pay correctly aren't seen as selfish ; ) It really just goes back to the argument of artists being paid. -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 10:53 AMI agree that professionals should get paid. Professional performers should get paid. Professional sponsors and organizers should get paid. Professional teachers should get paid.
The majority of community events involve a lot more of the community participating and are often essentially recitals with a different name. I've yet to see a dance recital in any style/genre (or age group for that matter) where the participants get paid. Envision if you will 5 year old Sally in her bumblebee ballet costume, or adult (just for fun) Irish step dance student performing. Outside of other dancers and family members *where* can one realistically propose the money comes from? What exactly is the target market for a recital with a different name? Sure, it would be nice if everyone got paid, but the money has to come from somewhere - the events are often "of the community, by the community, for the community", which is different from "corporate gig", "regular venue" or "private party".
I believe in being supportive of others in the community. There are teachers who really work very hard to promote the dance. There are sponsors who put in countless hours to bring in fabulous teachers. When I can support these people I do because it's about the dance for me. At the same time- promoting fair rates is ALSO about the dance.
Performers DO need appropriate and safe practice venues and some people simply wish no keep it on that level and not take it further. Some people prefer to avoid the pressure of the professional arena. These events provide "safe" and appropriate performance opportunities and a chance to socialize. That's different from "work".
Hopefully the participants also have a responsible teacher helping them with the business ethics and encouraging professional rates and standards should they decide to take it further.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 11:37 PMWell said Samira!
I get a lot of request for dancers to participate for free (or nearly free)
And I don't mind asking my "students" if they'd like to participate in community events (local stuff that is like you put it, more of a recital or showcase situation) Gives them performing experience and preps them for later move into professional status (if/as they become ready).
But for a pro venue, event, or restaraunt (w/ exception of a local monthly Hafla that is held at a restaraunt) - -I would never dream of not asking for something for my advanced dancers or troupes. At least the going rate for semi-pro, and better rates for the pro-troupe and soloists (which we now have)
Probably the only exception would be a charity event in which all the performers were donating their time. But def mention to the audiance that as this is a charity event - and all the artists have given freely of their time/talen -- that they (the audiance) should open their wallets and donat something as well (to the charity of course - not the performer). -
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 1:42 PMThere are monthly haflas at restaurants and similar venues that pay their professional performers close to private party rates. That's only what I know about; maybe there are haflahs that pay more. I don't think it's too much for professionals to ask for sufficient compensation at these events, or any other event, that include a paying public. That can mean charity functions, too.
Even when the public does not have to pay, there is the possibility of grants and sponsors to pay the artists and organizers involved.
I don't think dancers should be afraid to ask for compensation for their time and energy, no matter what the event. It all goes back to artists getting paid.
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Re: Artists Getting Paid
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 1:16 PMThank you Soooo Much for Sharing this! My thoughts exactly..... I live in a small town it's hard to get gigs much less paid gigs.... but I find if I hold out and insist I am worth $$ many will still pay me..... Professionals should get paid who pays for my private lessons? My costumes? My studio rehearsal space? gas to go to the show? Workshops?
I'll agree there are the haflas / community events we should by all means support and appreciate with one another..... However I pick and choose how many unpaid performances I do a year..... Simply put it has to be worth my drive, practice, gas, time make-up, costume time......
I am glad there are haflas and community events for all to perform at and I get to see many frenz.....