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This is a multi-part question, so bear with me, please. :)
The studio where I take classes is very much about creating a safe space for women. I don't think men are outright told they can't take lessons there, but it is definitely advertised towards women and has a very strong women's community/safe haven/sisterhood vibe. Part of the reason for the "no men" rule/guideline is that the teacher wants to make sure we don't feel leered at in class and wants us to relax (in the past, some dancers' boyfriends would come and watch).
This got me thinking because I'm bisexual and I wondered what the difference was between the straight guys and me. I'm not in the closet, but I don't walk up to everyone and say, "Hi, I'm Jen and I'm bisexual," so some don't know. But perhaps it wouldn't bother them because, even though I'm attracted to women, I'm a woman so I have the same parts, so it's not anything novel for me (plus, I view most of them like sisters).
So, my questions: Do men take lessons in your studios? Does it matter if the man is gay or straight (perhaps a silly question, but I know a lot of people who view a gay man as "one of the girls")? How does your studio feel about GLBT dancers? Have there been issues between the dancers? Do they feel safe/comfortable enough to be out?
I don't entirely feel like all of the girls in my studio will be comfortable with me when they figure out I'm bisexual, which makes me sad because I'll lose some of that sense of community I have there. That's part of the reason I made a GLBT belly dancer and friends tribe on Tribe -- for the support/community. :)
-Jennifer
Moderator of GLOW Raqs
tribes.tribe.net/glowraqs
The studio where I take classes is very much about creating a safe space for women. I don't think men are outright told they can't take lessons there, but it is definitely advertised towards women and has a very strong women's community/safe haven/sisterhood vibe. Part of the reason for the "no men" rule/guideline is that the teacher wants to make sure we don't feel leered at in class and wants us to relax (in the past, some dancers' boyfriends would come and watch).
This got me thinking because I'm bisexual and I wondered what the difference was between the straight guys and me. I'm not in the closet, but I don't walk up to everyone and say, "Hi, I'm Jen and I'm bisexual," so some don't know. But perhaps it wouldn't bother them because, even though I'm attracted to women, I'm a woman so I have the same parts, so it's not anything novel for me (plus, I view most of them like sisters).
So, my questions: Do men take lessons in your studios? Does it matter if the man is gay or straight (perhaps a silly question, but I know a lot of people who view a gay man as "one of the girls")? How does your studio feel about GLBT dancers? Have there been issues between the dancers? Do they feel safe/comfortable enough to be out?
I don't entirely feel like all of the girls in my studio will be comfortable with me when they figure out I'm bisexual, which makes me sad because I'll lose some of that sense of community I have there. That's part of the reason I made a GLBT belly dancer and friends tribe on Tribe -- for the support/community. :)
-Jennifer
Moderator of GLOW Raqs
tribes.tribe.net/glowraqs
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, February 26, 2009 - 9:58 PMWell live musicans in dance classes tend to be male.
But I have seen one muscle bound guy doing a dance class. However it was quite clear talking to him that he was gay and probably not there to pick up women. Wasn't a bad dancer either but male dancers aren't my cup of tea.
My experience is that I've never seen a straight guy do bellydancing. Neither has my drum teacher who has been around the arabic arts scene for 20 years.
But going back to your question. I don't think the women in class worry too much that the musicans are guys. I can't see why any of them would be uncomfortable that there maybe lesbians and bi sexual students in the class as well. I do know of one class that seems to have a few lesbians in it. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 11:28 AMIt may be your experience that you've never seen a straight guy bellydance, but that's not my experience. I have met straight, bi, and gay male bellydancers.
Also, there are totally live musicians that are girly type womens- people of all genders and orientations both dance and play music.
Just sayin. I know I'm stating the obvious to many, but there you have it.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, February 26, 2009 - 11:37 PMI have male students that take my classes of a variety of sexual orientations. Some are pop-lockers and just want to improve their isolations. I have an actor taking my beginning class as a way to expand his body awareness. I haven't asked, but I'm assuming he's straight. And others just love the dance and music. I try to create a nurturing environment for all my students. Of every fitness level, body shape, sex, orientation, cultural background, etc. Everyone is there to learn, so my job is to focus the attention to that and steer worries away from anything that may impede on the learning process. I have a student that was attempting to hit on a few of my girls when he first started taking class. I made it quickly and firmly known that he was there to work not flirt. I made sure it was an extra sweaty class; he got the point and comes to class now prepared and focused on dance.
For me, anyone that wants to learn is welcome. And since I place the emphasis so, the other students seem to understand and accept that as well. They trust me and know that I take each of their process seriously. For that, they can be open to the entire group. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 7:06 AM"Part of the reason for the "no men" rule/guideline is that the teacher wants to make sure we don't feel leered at in class and wants us to relax (in the past, some dancers' boyfriends would come and watch)."
It seems to me the problem was letting people observe the class, not men IN the class. I feel she put her focus on the wrong part.
Straight men DO take belly dance. My husband has taken from Artemis Mourat- who always creates a welcome environment for anyone who wants to dance.
I think this is the right way to go for most classes- a dance class for people who want to dance.
I also don't buy into this as a "women's dance" anyway. There have been times in history when *only* men were allowed to perform in public.
To me, this is a dance for all people who love the dance. Period. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 7:08 AM...oh- and my vote of support! I just joined your tribe! Looks excellent! :D
tribes.tribe.net/glowraqs
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 9:15 AMI use to take classes with Artemis and there was occasionally a man taking the class mostly gay but one straight man that was married to one of the dancers. And no it was not Samira, but another lady. She also had Brad Sidwell drum in her class.
I admit that the first time I took the class it threw me off at first, mainly because I just came from a Goddess style teacher. And the Goddess style seems to support the women for women idea.
But I got use to it. And did not think anything of it. Brought a friend with me and she was really put off by it.
But once you get more experienced and especially when you start performing. Guess what. There will be men in the audience and some may be leering at you.
I must say that Artemis only had men in her class as students or as musicians. Never did a random male just sit around and watch us.
And I agree with Samira
And over the years as I got more educated about the cultural aspect of the dance. While there are instances where woman are dancing for woman. That is not the only scenario for this dance. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 9:39 AMWhen are we going to realize that gender has nothing to do with sexuality.
bring on the boys, bois, girls, grrls, tranny's, gender queer, polygender, tiger femme..... -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Tue, March 3, 2009 - 4:43 PMHear, hear!
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 9:57 AMI take in all who want to learn dance--men, women, kids, whatever. I don't care about people's sexual orientation, as it's not my business. As long as you're there to learn, awesome.
I also don't allow spectators in class--men, women, kids, whatever. Doesn't matter the gender, doesn't matter the sexual orientation, doesn't matter if it's your boyfriend or your mom. It would seem really inhibiting to me if I were a student and people were just sitting on the sidelines staring at me while I tried to learn how to dance. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 10:39 AMhasn't bellydance been sort of the "cinderella" of the dance world? a lot of us as bellydancers have experienced being treated as an outsider simply because we are involved in the underdog art of bellydancing.
wouldn't it be nice to be all-inclusive?
wouldn't it be nice to feel welcome in our community, no matter what your orientation?
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, March 12, 2009 - 11:57 AMWe can only hope..... :-)
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 11:37 AMI don't think that editing out people of any gender who are attracted to women is the only "right" way of creating safe space for women. I think safe space is created mostly by the teachers' attitude- what beliefs do they project about their own body? how do they ask their students to relate to their bodies? are they accepting of different body types (and gender orientations! hello! gosh) or do they project their own anxieties? what rules do they have to protect students from their peers if things get weird or ugly?
I have had to ask students to leave my classes before because they were really negatively affecting the space and making people feel uncomfortable and unsafe. (not in the sense that they would be physically attacked, of course, but just like they couldn't relax and feel at home.) All of these people were straight women!! Straight women can make other women feel inadequate, inferior and objectified just as well as men can, I'm afraid.
I am a feminist. I don't hate men or wish to exclude them. I simply demand that people treat each other with respect and kindness REGARDLESS of gender. I think most people are capable of that.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 11:41 AMTo me, it sounds like the studio you're describing is reflecting the teacher's own inability to manage her classroom.
First, I find it really odd that she used to allow spectators. Although I've been known to allow the occasional parent of a teen-age class member to read a book in the back of the room while class went on, I can't imagine allowing boyfriends of class members to sit there and watch the class. What made this teacher think it was a good idea to do that?
Second, if she's banning males from taking the class on the grounds that she fears they might leer at the students, then that's discrimination by gender, and may even be illegal in your state.
I believe in letting people of all genders and orientations sign up for my classes, but while they are there I expect them to behave in a way that is consistent with learning how to dance. Ie, to focus on what I'm teaching, try to learn it, don't pester the classmates, etc. I've had male students over the years, and never once have I needed to have words with anybody about inappropriate behavior. I know that some were straight but they focused their attention on learning to dance and were often more self-conscious than the women around them. If someone DID sexually harass his/her classmates, I'd make it clear such behavior was unwelcome, and if it recurred I'd evict that person from my class. But note that my decision-making is based on behavior, not on the shape of the person's body. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 7:59 PMShira: Second, if she's banning males from taking the class on the grounds that she fears they might leer at the students, then that's discrimination by gender, and may even be illegal in your state.
Hell yeah and I am so glad you brought this up. The distinction lies though between private studios and facilities that are run in connection with the county or state or are non-profit. For instance..if someone works for a community center they can't ban anyone regardless of personal concerns.
J...I *think* you hit upon a hypocracy. As far as the women in class who may or may not accept you, there is...sadly... nothing you can. They will have to overcome their issues on their own and that is exactly what it is...their issues. My heart goes out to you. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 7:13 AM"The distinction lies though between private studios and facilities that are run in connection with the county or state or are non-profit."
That's not quite right. Private businesses are covered by non-discrimination laws too. Can't speak to the particulars of laws in every jurisdiction, but the whole point of non-discrimination laws (often called human rights laws in many American jurisdictions) is to apply to everyone. Just like a restaurant can't say no black people get served, regardless of who owns them, laws that prohibit gender discrimination apply to both privately owned and publicly owned venues.
-Deb
the lesbian belly-dancing civil rights lawyer
(I should put that on my business cards) -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 9:37 AMDeb,
But what about the golf clubs that are men only and the gyms that are women only? How are they allowed to make gender a criteria?
-Jen -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 8:45 PM***Not a lawyer***...just a Diversity and Tolerance Educator here....
From my education and experience and I am often not privy to all the aspects of laws ( nor can I understand them) which are very complex...but...
The private/public concept primarily deals with federal and state funding. However ( and I acknowledge my mistake here), certain organizations do get funding regardless of beleifs...the best example is religious hosues of worhsip. or rather I should say...not federal funding but are often tax exempt if they meet certain criteria. Well..now..as I am writing this..not sure if that is the same though.
And yes...one cannot choose who to serve at a restaurant based on agee/sex/disabilities and so forth.
However, exclusion does exist and is acceptable is areas concerning seperate but equal facilities, religious concerns, areas where a disability or religious affiliation and would be in direct contrast to interests served. An organization can exclude as well if a disability such as mental illness presents a hazard for others. I sadly know this because I am currently involved in two seperate legal issues on this direct matter. Also...the Boy Scouts were a notorious case. They can and do exclude those with beliefs not in accordance with their own as well as those with sexual orientation not to their preference. According to the case...the decision of the courts from my understanding is that the Boys Scouts of America, and all private organizations, have a right to set membership standards in accordance with the First Amendment.
I am having difficulty finding federal reference to issues such as gym memberships and dance classes but I can confidentally say that a community center that is state funded cannot exclude without reasonable concern in regards to the operation of the class or the potential trampling of the rights of the attendees. But...a little lesser known aspect the the 14th amendment and Title VII has an exclusion that states that Title VII only applies for businesses with a certain number of employees. Now...maybe I have always interpreted this wrong but basically...mom and pop shops are not held to the same standards as major companies.
www.eeoc.gov/employers/overview.html
I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE (did I say that enough?) to learn more though and especially be enlightened if I am wrong as I have to deal with these type of complex matters frequently. BTW: I think you should put that on your business cards! -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 29, 2009 - 7:25 PMSmall organizations get away with a lot basically because no one ever makes an issue of it. It's usually not worth it. Now, gender is given a lower level of scrutiny than race by the courts. Sexual orientation is lower still.
Clubs (like the Boy Scouts or golf clubs) have countervailing First Amendment rights of association. However, they aren't businesses that are open to the public. A belly dance club would have different standards applied than a belly dance class.
The issue is what your particular city and state laws say, and more realistically, who might care.
Be careful not to mix up equal employment opportunity laws (which often have a minimum number of employees) and public accommodations (business open to the public) laws (which usually don't). Also, it's not just the federal law you need to look at, but your state and local laws too. They often apply to smaller businesses and cover more categories.
I keep toying with putting together a booklet for belly dancers on these issues, since I see questions come up a lot in different forums. I don't know if there's enough interest out there to bother.
Bottom line is probably that no one is going to sue a belly dance teacher, because no one would care enough or get enough money in a lawsuit to make it worth the bother. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 30, 2009 - 6:21 AMThank you Deborah...I am sure we all appreciate your time and expertise.
I *think* I understand in that there is not a clear black and white distinction between public and private facilities because there may or may not be other factors that the law may or may not view favorably. From what I am understanding of you...the club you referred to can set certain preferences because of its dynamic as opposed to a general class offered to the public. I guess how it might relate directly to those with businesses is...can a private studio be considered a club? As well...where does it leave the many Independent contractors on the board?
I imagine that exclusions may be acceptable in cases where say...an Instructor might not be qualified to teach a man, someone with a disability, or even someone with age related concerns but...I certainly wouldn''t want to test that.
In my own state...NJ has LAD and this is what it states:
[The New Jersey Law Against Discrimination (LAD) prohibits an owner, manager, or employee of any place that offers goods, services and facilities to the general public, such as a restaurant, hotel, doctor's office, camp, or theater, from directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual because of that individual's race, creed, color, national origin, nationality, ancestry, marital status, domestic partnership status, sex, affectional or sexual orientation, or disability. Further, individuals accompanied by a guide or service dog are entitled to full and equal access to all places of public accommodation.
There are certain exceptions. Places of public accommodation which, by their nature, are reasonably restricted to individuals of one gender (such as dressing rooms or gymnasiums) may deny access to the accommodation to members of the other gender. Also, the provisions of the LAD that govern public accommodations do not apply to a place of public accommodation that is "in its nature distinctly private" or to schools operated by bona fide religious institutions. However, it is unlawful for a private club or association to discriminate against a member with respect to the advantages and privileges of membership on the basis of race, creed, color, national origin, nationality, ancestry, marital status, domestic partnership status, sex, or affectional or sexual orientation. ]
So...here we have a very ambiguous statement and one that can be interpretted differently depending on the nature of a concen and the dynamics of the facility: "in its nature distinctly private". As well...would reasonable restriction include (in direct relation to conversation)someone of potential ill intent entering a class or for the protection of individuals who seek a safe haven from abuse.
And yes...gender and sexual orientation do sadly take a back seat but I believe strongly in progress and have witnessed and experienced change first hand. *I* would def. be interested in a booklet if you do decide to pursue it.
I think what concerns me most is a prevalent attitude of men and an automatic assumption of ill intent in a general context and this saddens me having been personally barred from an opportunity for the very same reason. Sounds ridiculous now...a woman entering a trade class because she is there to check out guys, cause a disruption or simply did not belong because it was traditionally done by men.
But...this is often what I hear as justicication for not allowing men. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 30, 2009 - 12:29 PMYou can always keep someone out of anywhere if it's not because of a protected category -- and being a leering jerk is definitely not a protected category. Being a "watcher" in a class is not a protected category either.
I would probably argue (always subject to a lot of specifics) that even a private studio is a place of "public accomodation," if you were opening it up to the general public to take classes. By which I mean, if you are advertising or hanging up flyers in public or on-line, if you basically took people's money to teach a class, etc., you are open to the general public. It's more about the facts of the dynamics, then what you call it specifically.
If you were running a class for DV survivors specifically, you might have a good argument for making it female-only. Obviously, there are abuse survivors who are male too, but the numbers tend to be overwhelming female. But I don't think you could say that women, generally, suffer from abuse and therefore all classes have to be women only. If I were a law professor, I'd put that question on an exam, because it's tricky and interesting. Or at least, I find it interesting.
I suppose, ultimately, you have to decide as a personal and business deicsion whether you risk more lost students from not discriminating against men (or whatever protected class) or you risk more from lost integrety, lost students and potential lawsuits from discriminating.
Lots of interesting thoughts for a Monday,
-Deb -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 30, 2009 - 9:06 PMlegal wrangling aside, I have found that men who are brave enough/passionate enough to enter an all female setting are definitely there to learn. They are also (in my admittedly limited experience) very much aware of group dynamics & honor women's needs for woman only space when needed. having a participant only rule has been our solution for 7 years. Even when working on a university campus, when we had to fight for *that* policy. We couldn't actually put a 'participants only' clause in writing to be a university club, but pointedly asking watchers if they would like to join either got them involved or moving on...
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 11:58 AMThanks for all the replies on this so far! ^_^
Three comments for clarification:
One, the "no men" guideline isn't something she's stated outright, posted to her website, or put on fliers, but because she focuses a lot on "creating a safe space for women," "a dance for all women," and really stresses the sisterhood vibe, men definitely seem discouraged from attending. I don't know of any man who has expressed interest in classes there, so I don't know how she would react if one actually approached her about classes. After talking to him to make certain he wasn't taking classes just to leer at us, she may be okay with it, but I know some girls in class who would not be okay with it even if he passed being "screened."
Two, she is not the one I think would have issues with me being bisexual, I worry about the reactions from some of the other dancers. I believe the teacher would be totally supportive on this issue. :)
Three, for the boyfriends coming to watch issue, that happened before I started going, so I don't know if it was a longstanding problem or if it happened one week and then she took the dancer aside and said they weren't allowed to do it again. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 12:11 PMAnyone is welcome in my classes as long as they behave appropriately in the class setting. I had a straight female student who used to talk very explicitly about violent bondage and S&M type stuff that she and her boyfriend engaged in. (I didn't judge her for her sexual kinks, but I had several underaged students in class, and I felt this talk was not appropriate for a class setting.) It made a lot of my students uncomfortable too. I finally had to talk to her about watching her language in front of the young ones. I also had to declare a rule that in-class conversations had to be dance related. That seemed to fix the problem mostly. My point is simply that gender and sexuality have very little to do with it. Even women can violate the supposed safety of a "woman only space".
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 12:12 PMI want to stress that the teacher has not ever asked for anyone's orientation, nor has she given any indication she would have a problem with a GLBT dancer. I just had some general questions pop up in my head because of the uber strong "safe space for women/women's community/women's dance" vibe at the studio and I thought the questions would be interesting for discussion. My brain kinda works that way: one topic or issue comes up and I start to think, "Yes, but what about this related case, would it apply there?" and off my brain goes down the new path of questioning. :)
Some of the responses to the thread are very adamant (which I appreciate, thank you for supporting a person's right to be GLBT) but I just want to make certain people realize my teacher does not have a problem with GLBT dancers (I just wonder about the potential response from a handful of dancers at the studio). -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 5:28 PMI would think that allowing or not allowing male dancers, spectators or whatever would be up to the teacher. Each teacher has a right to run their class however they see fit.
People have the right to take or not take the class.
Just like any business owner, I feel has or should have the right to run their business their way. If it flops, it's on them, if it flies then it is also on them.
If someone has joined a class and the they realize that they disagree with the way the teacher runs their class, they can leave.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Fri, February 27, 2009 - 12:03 PMI would expect to not be told a student's sexual orientation as it it none of my business. I would expect that it not be told to the others in the class either. Do I go to an art class and say "Hi! I'm Sally and I like to have have sex with men"? Um, NO! On the same level that I go to an art class to learn about or how to make art, I go to dance classes for dance, not to learn everyone's sexual preferences. If you become close enough friends with someone, you may naturally share such information, but that should have no bearing on anything else. If it does, well, maybe they aren't that good of a friend!
I'm all for the safe space for women, but eventually, even those of us who have been traumatized, we have to realize that some men ARE actually good people! Good, supportive men in our dance classes can help with that immensely..... anyone else feel that they can be a pillar in recovery???? -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Tue, March 3, 2009 - 5:45 PMAnother thing that recently dawned on me is that men have as much benefit to gain from belly dance as women. My husband, for example, is constantly complaining about his lower back hurting, and I notice that he stands with his butt sticking out, classic sway back, 99.99% of the time. No wonder right? Pelvic locks forward and proper belly dance posture would really help him with this issue, I am sure of it. ;)
It's amazing how many men are afraid to move their hips AT ALL. I'm starting to see that belly dance is an incredible movement therapy for everyone. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Wed, March 4, 2009 - 7:38 AMThis is somewhat of a tangent, but relevant to men dancing in general. There is a great documentary called Na Kamalei: The Men of Hula. A friend recommended it this winter, saying that hula had done for many of these men what belly dance has done for many women. (That is by no means to imply that either dance is for one gender alone.) It's really worth a watch!
www.pbs.org/independentl...la/index.html
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, March 5, 2009 - 5:36 AMI have nothing against a gender restricted class, an age restricted class (meaning no children), or whatever restrictions the instructor wants to put on it for whatever reasons. I think there are marketing angles that work for some people that should be pursued.
That being said, I have had one male in class. He was obviously not a threat to anyone. I have no idea what his sexual orientation was, but he was focused on learning how to dance. He was congenial to everyone and it never created any problems. I think that problems that are created by a person's behavior should be addressed- even if that includes creating a restriction to who can come to class. I think that problems that are created by another person's inner environment should be dealt with by the person who has the problem.
Taaj
www.taaj.org
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 11:33 AMI'm intriguged by this thread for a number of reasons....
(1) I've always thought it would be fun personally to take bellydance classes, and have many bellydance instructor friends local in the Buffalo/WNY area... but am under the impression that most only teach women, and might not be "skilled" to teach a style of bellydance that would both teach the core principals while also being mindful of unique or alternate techniques/styles that might be more suitable for a male presentation.
(2) When I've observed bellydance classes, I've been impressed by the overwhelming warmth, and bonding, which occurs between the women. Of course there is a wonderfully powerful and symbiotic connection between live musicians and the dancers too (I'm a percussionist and have played with/for dancers)... but something is very special about the connection between the women who dance.
I would have to imagine that a male presence would alter the energy in the class... am I wrong? -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Wed, March 18, 2009 - 6:39 PM"I would have to imagine that a male presence would alter the energy in the class... am I wrong? "
I think it really depends on the teacher. I have a man in my Saturday class, & my son comes too. There is quite a bit of comraderie, everyone has a good time, I haven't lost any female students & to me there is not a big noticeable difference between this class & my other classes. I think people have more good sense & flexibility than we give them credit for. If someone is serious about learning to dance, they are welcome in my class. I also have clear policies regarding what kind of behavior is allowed and what is not & have never had problems with disrespectful behavior towards me or any of my students. I think it is a safe and fun learning environment.
For more of my opinion, also see:
www.gildedserpent.com/art45/laramen.htm
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, March 19, 2009 - 7:46 AMA local dancer/teacher often teaches teaser classes at sci-fi conventions. She often has men participating, but very few go on to join classes. It generally didn't change the "feel" of the class when men participated, but it did change it with a young couple participated...they evidently found the experience very sexy, and were moved to PDA during the class. *rolls eyes*
I think having men in the studio will cause problems if the women students are very insecure, if the men have an agenda outside of dance, or if there are Muslim women students. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 21, 2009 - 1:46 PMPDA? -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 21, 2009 - 9:45 PMPublic Display of Affection. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 21, 2009 - 9:47 PMGenerally used as a euphemism for for "affectionate" behavior that goes beyond the bounds of what is considered polite when there is company present.
Holding hands, not PDA
Making out with your significant other at the library, PDA. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 11:41 AMDing ding. ;)
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sat, March 21, 2009 - 10:48 PM>...I think having men in the studio will cause problems if the women students are very insecure
Call me crazy but....
Doesn't anyone else agree with the notion that there is both "male" and "female" energies, and that part of the beauty in a bonded bellydance class is the sharing of that female energy?
Or maybe what I've observed and called "female energy" is really just "bonding" and it can cross the lines of engenderment. Obviously your experiences have demonstrated that men in the studio doesn't necessarily change things...
Now on the topic of "insecure" -- so how do you handle it if some of the women dancers *are* "very insecure"? Do they self-select out? Do they typically become more secure regardless of the male students? Do you somehow "protect" them as they grow? -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 8:37 AMTo ME the beauty of this art is sharing the art with others...who also love it (or end up falling in love with it).
I don't think love of the art is gender specific. I am friends with so many people who fall on different parts of the "gender role spectrum" and wasn't raised "girls do THIS and boys do THIS." People are people. People who love dance are people who love dance.
Some women come to the dance for healing purposes and feel "safer" in female company. I can understand this and feel that "role" is an important role and therefore it's nice that some teachers cater to this need. I think it's better to look at it from that perspective however and not make up Godessy reasons or say that it's only "by women for women"- as that is false history.
I come to the dance from a dance background. All are welcome- no matter what anatomy you possess or what anatomy you appreciate more. LOL
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 23, 2009 - 6:33 AMwellll, I was trying to stay out of this, but of course your energy question got me!
Of course there's male & female energy, but don't you think each sex shares both?
And when can a dance class finally just be a dance class? My take on the "assumptive baggage" that some people bring to class (i.e. it's just for fun! it's a sacred ritual! it's female bonding! whatever!) is, there has to be another place/time/activity that will fit that bill for you, but this is just a dance class. If you want to privately consider it something else, great, but don't put that load on everyone else.
And for disruptions, ANYONE who brings a sucky, negative, draining energy into class whether it's sexual or otherwise, is a super drag & we wish they'd just leave, frankly, though if they're just bothering me as the teacher, I try to learn from it. But, if they are bothering other students, they will probably be talked to about it, warned, and then asked to leave.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 23, 2009 - 9:59 AMI had a dance instructor actually ask me if I was interested in teaching drum classes at the conclusion of the workshop I was attending there. Then, a few days later when I went back to negotiate and do the deal, she told me that because I wasn't married her students would feel insecure, so "I'll get back to you" was the response.
Now I'm going to teach drumming at another place called "Women only Workout". Heh, go figure. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Mon, March 23, 2009 - 3:12 PMah HA... so I'm *not* crazy! (well, perhaps I am, but not completely off-topic with my wondering). Funny thing is -- when she said her "students would feel insecure", I read that as her "students *are* insecure and would be uncomfortable." Hopefully through continued dance they found inner strength that one day they might welcome you back...
Sure -- I definitely think that there are male and female energies in us all... and please don't misconstrue any of my questions as a personal opinion I have or feel about "appropriateness" of men in the bellydance studio. My questions were merely stemming from comments I've heard from dance instructors and owners of studios, coupled with my own observance of what appeared to be an amazingly beautiful connection between dancers.
This thread has been quite enlightening... thank you all! :-) -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 6:13 AMsorry, I think the idea of banning people from class seems to push my buttons - we don't often see that spark in my posts, right?
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 11:46 AMI'm not holding my breath, Rob. :-) It matters not, anyway. There's way too many choices. It's a vestige of a way things were done in yesteryear, and the attitudes and perceptions of reality local to that time frame, none of which are bad. They are just not very useful now. That's why they fit the definition of "vestige".
:-)
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 8:31 AMAs an openly lesbian dancer and teacher in my local (awesome!) community, I have to say that I have never once had a problem. That includes classes I've taken that were explicitly marketed towards creating a safe space for women, as your teacher's classes are. I initially thought it would be weird to be very out and open (my wife is also a great bellydancer), but it turns out that I was the only one who was feeling uncomfortable. No one else seems to feel strange about my sexuality at all!
The difference between straight guys and you is an issue of cultural/sociological power, not attraction. I can't imagine a queer bellydancer leering at her fellow dancers in a stereotypical "male" way. (Not saying all men do that; but we do know the stereotype, don't we?) And I swear, more of my fellow dancers (straight) flirt with *me* while we're dancing than the other way around. Bizarre, but fun!
Oh, and I absolutely welcome men of any orientation in my dance classes - I market them as "all genders welcome" which hopefully reads as "queer-friendly" to those in the know. :) -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 8:34 AM"all genders welcome"
Oh, I like that phrase! great way to put it.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 11:45 AMCurious, what is your reaction (personal and professional) to men who have erections in the studio? Should they proceed regardless, or beat a retreat to the bathroom? Is it appropriate for the teacher (or other students) to say anything, or should we pretend it isn't happening/didn't happen? -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 22, 2009 - 6:06 PMThat's a good question. It's never happened. If it were me, I probably wouldn't even notice it unless someone said something. And if it happened, I imagine the guy would probably feel far more embarassed about it than I would, so I'd ignore it if I did see it.
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Tue, March 24, 2009 - 8:19 AMNone of the guys in my classes have worn anything that would make it obvious- I would think this is more of an appropriate dance gear question than a behavior problem. It is discussed a bit in either the Men of Middle Eastern Dance tribe or the Men's Bellydance Costuming tribe tho. If anything, I'd suggest men go look there to see what common dance wear problems exist.
Personally, if I tell my ladies they had better wear a good bra for performance, I am certainly would not disdain discussing dance belts and appropriate costuming with the menfolk
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, March 29, 2009 - 10:40 PMPersonally, I don't have a problem with men participating. That alleiviates the sense of being watched, because they are focusing on learning as well. However, I do not tolerate men watching in class.
Just my two cents. ^_^
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 8:20 PMThe store I teach my classes at used to have women's only haflas. The classes the instructor before me ran were women's only. It was a concern I'd had about teaching classes there. I didn't want to teach there if my classes had to be restricted to women only. I find that there are some stunning male dancers out there and I don't want them to be cut out because of other women being uncomfortable. Honestly, if we're all there to dance, they should be thinking about their dancing. It's not like the men in the class are going to have time to check out the women with the high energy classes I teach.
However, recently I did get a male student in my class. I've found it was actually harder for him to open up and feel comfortable in the class because he's surrounded by women. Not only is he having a difficult time because he's never taken a dance class before, never mind belly dance, but he's a lot more stiff and rigid than my other students, and he is the only male. He does get his good share of teasing, though, thankfully it's mostly been playful stuff from his girlfriend and her friend. He seems okay with that. However, I've noticed it's harder for him to just let go and feel it because he seems really intimidated by the women in the class.
Honestly, I think it's harder for a man in an all women dance class than it is for the group of women to have a man invade their "women only" space. In my experiences, I've noticed that the men in class have a harder time feeling comfortable being surrounded by women, or more importantly, with the concept of dance at all. It's harder for them to work up to the courage to do it than most of the women.
Finally, I think the spectator issue is a big one for anyone. When I started dance, I hated the idea of having a spectator watch me. At the studio I teach at, we're using a space that's not entirely private and I don't exactly have permission to kick people out, so it makes the spectator issue challenging. A lot of people will wait back there for appointments and other things and watch belly dance classes while they're waiting. Sometimes the parents sit over by the stereo during the kids' class then turn the music way down and proceed to talk so loud that we can't even hear it. It's challenging and frustrating. I think if I had a more private space, I'd tell all spectators that they have to wait outside the room, unless they were parents of under-age students. In which case, they can stay in the room if they're not a distraction to the class. The only people I can understand sitting in as a spectator are other students who cannot take the class for whatever reason and still want to be up to date on what's covered. I've had a couple students now that have been out of class due to injury or various other reasons that will sit in until they can come back to dance. The other students don't mind because the entire class has become pretty close, so they're comfortable with having someone they regularly dance with watching them for a week or two.
That's just my experience though. -
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Re: Men in the studio and GLBT dancers question
Sun, April 5, 2009 - 5:06 PM"I'd tell all spectators that they have to wait outside the room, unless they were parents of under-age students."
Nope- not even then. I have had a fair number of kids in class over the years- if mom is willing to participate, sometimes it is okay & sometimes not- but having mom sit in back & watch has NEVER been good for the kids trying to learn. One darling little girl was so stiff I thought she didn't want to be in class at all & mom was forcing her to come. next week, mom wasn't there & she totally loosened up and did *great*- I haven't allowed parents in class since- & all of them have been very understanding if they have asked, most don't even question the policy. If they want to see a class, they are welcome to pay & participate. I have had a couple do that for one class at the beginning of a session.
but I can sympathize with the shared space issue- we had some of the same problems at the university- either practice in a semi public space or clear the desks out of a math lab every week- such choices!
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