Tribe.net. Local Connections Maura http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#6118e380-6b73-4587-b2c0-7f1e2436c662 2007-07-24T03:31:37Z 2007-07-24T03:31:37Z

To verify what a musician in another thread stated, I sent a message to J Soto of Solace re: using his music during performance. Here is what he sent back: "Using my music for performance is free. Using my music on DVD/Video requires a one time Sync Fee. So yes, to answer your questions. It's OK to use my music for a live performance. Please let me know if you have any other questions. " Hurray! This is me, scurrying off to make sure we have all of Solace's CDs in the collection...

Maura 2007-07-24T03:31:37Z Callisto http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#c23bd104-ef75-48b4-8d02-f1f609543968 2007-07-20T14:33:07Z 2007-07-20T14:33:07Z

I'm glad this thread came up, because we have started talking about making a dance DVD in Europe covering the European Gothic Bellydance scene. So much helpful information. Thanks.

Callisto 2007-07-20T14:33:07Z Velvet Fifi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#204afc1f-01a0-4631-b726-4eea7b0d318e 2007-07-20T12:13:13Z 2007-07-20T12:13:13Z

Thanks for your input. We are licensed under BMI and ASCAP, and that covers us for what we do currently, but if we want to go further, well, my head is spinning. Going straight to the publisher or to an independant artist instead of a licensing outfit is definately the way to go from what I can tell. We would never be able to do anything because of the upfront cost without going this direction. The licensing firms quote outrageous amounts starting at $500 to $1000 per use of a song, per performance. It is Much better to deal straight with the producer or artist. The one thing we have definately stayed away from is recording workshop shows (the student recital, if you will) or anything else for that matter. From what I understand, once we recorded, we would be getting into synchronization and mechanical copyright laws, which ASCAP and BMI do not cover. We are doing our best to make sure that everyone is legal, and everyone is fairly compensated.

Velvet Fifi 2007-07-20T12:13:13Z Miles http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#88a60992-a840-4b2a-9ef5-ccfaf5f972f1 2007-07-20T09:55:28Z 2007-07-20T09:55:28Z

Just for the record it is more often than not the case that a recording artist has a contract with a publisher and or record company who then either owns the rights or has them under license for a period of time and it is their perogative to make the licensing deals and not the artist. In effect the aritst has given someone else the right to make deals for them in return for an $ advance and for a job to be done by the company he/she has signed to. Independent artists are out there and can be delt with directly of course. For a dance studio wanting to perform music it is normally a yearly fee that has to be paid to the societies and it is based on use and number of people hearing the music over the year. As a rule the societies try to be fair and not charge an unreasonable amount that is unaffordable.

Miles 2007-07-20T09:55:28Z Velvet Fifi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#cf90ec3d-ab4a-45d4-b124-09b255ac6a43 2007-07-19T22:58:18Z 2007-07-19T22:58:18Z

the song itself may be "traditional", but now you are getting into production, mechanical and synchronization rights. just because the song itself is traditional, the arrangement can be owned by the artist who arranged it, and/or the producer as well. it's an ugly mess. I was doing some research on this stuff and saw prices of $500 per song per use. We want to try to do some DVD and CD recordings of our shows. Well, there goes ANY use in a synch or mechanical use.. The best way to deal with this stuff, from what I can tell, is to contact the producer and artist directly, and figure out what is fair and equal for both of you. 30-50 copies of a DVD, paying $500 per song, each? no way. but that's what happens when you go through a licensing firm instead of directly to the artist. plus - the artist barely sees any of the $$ - and it's their intellectual property. I'd rather sign a contract with the artist and pay him/her directly for a flat fee for X number of copies produced, or a royalty fee... just my thoughts.

Velvet Fifi 2007-07-19T22:58:18Z Lara http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#1c78783a-2aaa-4051-8134-9fb858537afd 2007-07-19T16:39:29Z 2007-07-19T16:39:29Z

Thank you, but what about teaching in my own studio? how do I personally deal with that licensing issue & make sure I'm covered? Is it the same as playing music in a restaurant/club?

Lara 2007-07-19T16:39:29Z Miles http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#03a6c902-283b-4fda-8108-c8b7f77b47b0 2007-07-19T09:37:30Z 2007-07-19T09:37:30Z

If you want to use a song for a film, DVD, ie visual rendition you MUST get permission/a deal with 1. the composer of the song AND 2. the person performing the song. If you are dancing to a CD, the venue you are performing in should have a license to play music publically and will have an arangement in place to pay performing rights so normally you would not have to do anything except inform the venue what song you danced to and who the writer/performers are. It is the venue's responsibility to inform the performing rights societies. At least thats how it is supposed to happen.-----------Keep in mind for each song there are two rights involved. the song composition and the performance of the song. these can be two seperate organizations or even more if several writers composed a song and each had a different publisher. As an example, for the Folies Bergere DVD of the BDSS we had 56 contracts relating to song and performance rights.

Miles 2007-07-19T09:37:30Z Lara http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#b878011e-0773-4817-8793-1d72553d0f6d 2007-07-18T05:51:07Z 2007-07-18T05:51:07Z

so, just to be perfectly clear- if I want to use a peice of music that I can't find on the publicly available catalog at ASCAP or BMI, I can still claim I'm covered by paying ASCAP/BMI fees? The theory being I made a reasonable effort to get the money to the right person and if it doesn't make it, it's the artists problem for not registering & monitering? And a side note- if I do go directly to the artist for permission, am I running the risk of being sued by some publisher somewhere 'cause I didn't get permission for whatever their rights to the music are?

Lara 2007-07-18T05:51:07Z Maura http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#5d3ec595-60de-4cb1-860b-c432615439b9 2007-07-17T23:18:38Z 2007-07-17T23:18:38Z

Link to Gilded Serpent article posted on Bellydance Tribe... this article by Yasmin: http://www.gildedserpent.com/art40/YaminCopyright.htm

Maura 2007-07-17T23:18:38Z Maura http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#c85a4584-a816-4518-971b-c0943c560c7e 2007-02-04T21:19:55Z 2007-02-04T21:19:55Z

I never expected the thread to even be noticed. Astounded by the careful responses, even when contradictory. Thank you.

Maura 2007-02-04T21:19:55Z Miles http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#685dbbfc-6c03-4a71-bb38-2b131adbb89e 2007-01-22T03:59:06Z 2007-01-22T03:59:06Z

Mark, I am talking about the use of music in concerts or as a bellydancer would use it during a normal performance at a restaurant or theatre. NOT in the context of a theatrical production where there is naration or a story line etc. So we are not in disasgreement. By the way, just for the record the BDSS uses music in the context of a concert. We are not telling a story and there is no naration used to create a plot.

Miles 2007-01-22T03:59:06Z Mark http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#10d15404-c260-45a0-9528-0c25c9ae7c89 2007-01-21T21:45:32Z 2007-01-21T21:45:32Z

from the following site: http://www.iamusic.com/articles/copyright.html#Performing%20Rights Grand Rights: Term used to describe "dramatic" performing rights. This would include musical comedies (Broadway and off-Broadway), operas, operettas, ballets, as well as renditions of musical compositions in a dramatic setting where there is narration, a plot and/or costumes and scenery. The copyright owner has the exclusive right to issue licenses and collect fees for grand rights. Performance Rights Organizations do not collect performing rights royalties for this use, and are licensed directly from either the composer or publisher. Copyright: The exclusive right, granted by law for a stated period, usually until 70 years after the death of the surviving author of the work, to make, dispose of, and otherwise control copies of literary, musical, dramatic, pictorial and other copyrightable works. from the following site: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/termsdefined.html The term "dramatico-musical work" includes, but is not limited to, a musical comedy, oratorio, choral work, opera, play with music, revue or ballet. ASCAP has the right to license "non-dramatic" public performances of its members' works - for example, recordings broadcast on radio, songs or background music performed as part of a movie or other television program, or live or recorded performances in a bar or restaurant. Dramatic and grand rights are licensed by the composer or the publisher of the work. ...the user must be certain to obtain rights for all the music used in programs not covered by the license. from the following site: http://stockmusic.com/glossary.html Grand Performance Right A staged musical performance of a complete composition such as an aria from an opera or scene from a play. Such rights require a direct performance license from the copyright holder and are not in the jurisdiction of the Performing Rights Societies

Mark 2007-01-21T21:45:32Z Velvet Fifi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#b2be37bd-b205-4d06-82be-c1163edd48c8 2007-01-21T16:39:49Z 2007-01-21T16:39:49Z

thank you very much for all of your insight and help. Guys and Gals grousers, stop and listen to the man. He knows what he is talking about! ;-) I had to do my research and spoke with my business lawyer before we started putting on shows, workshops, etc., and it is the reason we signed up with ASCAP & BMI, but decided it wasn't worth selling video of our productions (we're just too small to make it worth the while yet). Again, thanks for all your words of wisdom. I'm sure that if anyone else takes the time to do their homework, they will only confirm what you have taken the time to explain, clearly, concisely, and without all the leagaleze.

Velvet Fifi 2007-01-21T16:39:49Z Miles http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#262c5fcc-15fd-4cd2-b154-97cebd9dc014 2007-01-19T22:16:43Z 2007-01-19T22:16:43Z

I have had some correspondence with a few artists who do not understand the law and believe they need to approve all usages of tfheir music. I have been doing this for 38 years do not like getting myself in legal trouble. The problem for small artists who do not understand is that if they are not in the system they are out of the system and do not get paid what they rightfully should get paid. If they do not register their songs the system cannot work for them. It is a system worked out many years ago before much of todays technology was in operation. The laws were in place for audio work but by the time visual work came in to the market everyone had woken up to the fact that there was real money to be made and general agreements failed to be made and that is why in the US one has to deal with use of music for visual usage on a case by case basis. For instance I had an artist called Dred Zepplin that did Led Zepplin covers sung by an Elvis impersonater in a style that Elvis would have sung the songs. I had no problem recording the songs and releasing them on an album (all I had to do was pay the 8 cents or so per song used on each CD sold to the publisher). When I tried to do a video I had to approach the Led Zepplin organization for permission (as it was a visual usage) which the denied so I could never do a video for the band and get them on MTV. The laws relating to audio were put in place to facilitate the use of music and create a way for its creators (the focus was on the song writers) to be compensated. As Susan suggested it would be an impossible situation for every venue using songs to apply each time they wanted to play a song to the owner of the song if they even knew who the owner was. There would be no music in the market and lawyers would be tied up forever granting liscenses to clubs, bars, etc etc to the point it would be insane. The Europeans solved the TV liscences with the blanket liscence for the same reason of making music use practicle and affordable. They did not accomplish this for DVD or video an no one has that i am aware of. As a footnote to all of this music creators should know that many music performing rights societies in countries of Europe (and probably elsewhere ) were set up primarily to protect the local writers (and their society members who are primarily local writers and music companies) and they don't go out of their way to make sure foeigners get paid. If a song is entered into their system and is misspelled or without complete information allowing them to claim they do not know who to rightfully pay they put any earnings attached to that song into what is called the "Black Box". Black Box income is money coming into the system from local use but they then do not know who to pay as they do not have the information to do so. It is suspected that the societies hire idiots to type in the information precicesly so mistakes will happen and money will go into the black box. This is good for the locals because after 3 years the Black Box income is distributed to the local members and also goes into the retirement fund of the society members. That is why it is necessary for writers to have a ligitimate international company publishing their songs as they are supposed to look out for things like this and protect their writers. An independent group in San Francisco who knows nothing about the world of publishing will undoubtedly find that they are out of the loop from this income stream. For instance when the BDSS performs in France the promoter pays 8% of the gross to the performing right society in France (SACEM). It is the law and out of our control even if we own all the songs ourselves. We give them a list of songs we have danced to. They sit on the money for a period (its up to them) and pass it on to the local publisher who claims to represent the song in that country and who is noted on the sheet we give the promoter to give to Sacem. The BDSS legal responsibility and obligation ends at that. If there is no local publisher SACEM will exert little or no effort to find the owner outside France so the money will go into the Black Box. If there is a local publisher they will get paid by Sacem and then account to the writers each 6 months and send payment less their percentage. That's how it works. Also each song is treated equally and receives exaxtly the same amount no matter who wrote it famous artist or not. If an independent artist in san Francisco dows not want thier music used in the public arena without their permission they should not release the music publically for sale. Once it is in public for sale it falls under the use laws and there is nothing they can do about it. That goes for the Beatles and the Police and everyone else too.

Miles 2007-01-19T22:16:43Z $item.owner.firstName http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#e26218a4-bb1f-4fdc-8e40-04066fbd6010 2007-01-19T19:43:24Z 2007-01-19T19:43:24Z

His response is no different than what I have read in a few places previously, only he really cleared it up as far as cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo. If cover bands all over the country can play live music in bars, I fail to see how using recorded music to bellydance to, or dancing to a live band playing the same music, can get me into such legal trouble that I am forced to declare bankruptcy or some such. I realize you are a relatively unknown musical artist (I mean compared to mainstream radio, not that you're not talented and making a living!) with a niche market and that it makes this subject more difficult for you.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-01-19T19:43:24Z Mark http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#47b6787b-5216-43e6-a432-42cd16dcd655 2007-01-19T18:56:06Z 2007-01-19T18:56:06Z

I suggest you speak with a copyright attorney before you take Miles Copeland's response "to the bank".

Mark 2007-01-19T18:56:06Z $item.owner.firstName http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#69a721be-8cdd-43a0-af20-0839b39fdddb 2007-01-19T18:27:16Z 2007-01-19T18:27:16Z

Thank you Miles for your very detailed response.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-01-19T18:27:16Z Samira http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#3a702cc6-ed20-4acc-a552-f99edec33a70 2007-01-19T15:59:06Z 2007-01-19T15:59:06Z

I'm SO thankful we have musicians on this tribe. :) Thanks so all of you who shared the information. VERY helpful.

Samira 2007-01-19T15:59:06Z Galit http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#f7ae0168-2df1-48b6-976f-bf3151c20823 2007-01-19T11:13:05Z 2007-01-19T11:13:05Z

Thanks Miles for this very detailed piece of information, it's very useful to me personally. And thank you every one else for this very important thread. Copyright -and not only musical - is something that is easily violated and when that happens it hurts, especially for those of us who are not very experienced and don't think about what their image that they agreed to be used as a favour for promotional posters and flyers 5 years ago might be used for now... without persmission OR credit! Oh well, we live and learn ; -)

Galit 2007-01-19T11:13:05Z Miles http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#9a7d859a-32c0-42d1-a1b7-317e70c9f151 2007-01-19T05:37:37Z 2007-01-19T05:37:37Z

Using music needs to be seperated into 3 catagories. Two of them are standardized and have set norms and one does not. The one that does not is the use of music for a visual recording such as a video or DVD and in the USA for TV usage. Whoever wants to use music to film must get rights from two places 1. the owner of the song (publishing) and 2. the owner of the recording (master right). These two could be owned by one person (the artist) or two entirely different companies each of which will ask for a fee. TV in Europe and some other territories is covered under a "blanket liscence" that the TV companies have negotiated with the music societies so they do not have to get a liscence each time they want to use a song. They pay an annual fee to the societies--inform them of the songs they have used - and its up to the societies to divide and distribute the amounts to the relevant copywright holders. If the owner has not registered his/her work the money goes into a "black box" for several years and if not claimend is then distributed to members of the society. There in no blanket liscnece int he US. The other two catagorie are use of a song on a CD. and public performance of the song. Using a song for a CD (audio only) recording requires no permission but does require a standard set payment per unit sold to the song composer/publisher. If the lyrics of the song are to be changed that also needs permision. Once a song is in the market released publically by someone then ANYONE can record it without permission so long as they pay the required standard publishing fee. Public performance is both simple and complicated. Simple in the fact that anyone can dance to or perform a song publically without getting permission from anybody because "in principal" every venue that has music played in a public setting is supposed to have a liscence to play music and pays an annual fee the music societies in each country. who in turn are supposed to divide the money according to what music is played. This means that a play list must be submitted by each venue after each concert and each song has to be registered with the societies or they will not know who to pay. In the US the concert venues pay a percentage of the gross recipts of each concert as they do in Europe an most other countries. I n Europe the amount can be as high as 8%of the gross and at a Sting concert for instance someone from SACEM will ac tually show up at the concert and make sure the money is deducted, the song list supplied and both handed over to SACEM. This even applies to the songs Sting composed himself and it may take a year for the money to filter back to him via his publisher having suffered a deduction from SACEM (for this service) and from his publisher. along the way. It is complicated as it is not a perfect science and it is far from accurate . It's not hard to see why it is virtually impossible to keep accurate with the thousands of venues and songs played every day. In the US the ASCAP and BMI societies each have a formula to divide fees for songs based on chart position, a sampling of radio playlists and various other ways they dont tell you. about. Each company has a different formula and way of computing. If a songwriter has not registered hisher song correctly they will never see anything as they are out of the system. In Europe there is a system for the musicians to also get a fee from their songs on the radio. its called PPL but agin its about being properly registered and in the system of each territory which is often easier said than done.

Miles 2007-01-19T05:37:37Z Şteffi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#4791b12f-f00f-4f04-8822-4199c02b5525 2007-01-18T21:54:36Z 2007-01-18T21:54:36Z

According to the musicians who told me, they don't see money because radio air time is the decisive factor for how the pie is sliced and distributed.

Şteffi 2007-01-18T21:54:36Z Velvet Fifi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#bbb7c229-9506-4791-adc1-4164b0aa3e9c 2007-01-18T21:15:28Z 2007-01-18T21:15:28Z

Now that ticks me off cause I'm paying my annual dues, and if I'm gonna be honest about using an artists' work, the money needs to get to the artist!

Velvet Fifi 2007-01-18T21:15:28Z Şteffi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#a253caf3-eba1-46fb-ad5b-b48dc27721ed 2007-01-18T18:38:44Z 2007-01-18T18:38:44Z

Actually it is a bit stricter, copyright law kicks in for anything that is not listening to music in the privacy of one's home, and one can not freely use music purchased with a private use license for non-private purposes, which includes teaching or haflas held at public venues. However, when one teaches at a yoga studio or organizes a hafla at a restaurant, these venues are responsible for securing a permit with ASCAP and <forgot the name> for their regular business anyways. And, from what I heard, ASCAP and <?> are fairly diligent in making sure that restaurants and such are properly licensed. Now, as musician friends told me, the bad news is - most musicians are unlikely to see a penny from these organizations, because of how the money is distributed.

Şteffi 2007-01-18T18:38:44Z Jeffrey http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#4df40382-84d8-4889-b827-0fcfbefbe80d 2007-01-18T18:20:22Z 2007-01-18T18:20:22Z

I agree with most everybody here on the legalities. You can use recordings for your classes, play them as background at any party, but once you are involved in a performance and even a video or such, you are bound by intellectual copy rights. Almost ALL of the time that I know of when artists were contacted to ask for permission for the use of their work, the fee asked for was nominal or nothing, but I agree that they wanted to receive credit. It's a relatively easy process to do, and failure to do so can leave you open to all sorts of nasty legal problems. A few years ago, my jazz combo wanted to use an old Irving Berlin piece that we had re-arranged and I contacted the Irving Berlin Estate and they gave me a waiver (in writing) told me that there would be no fee and simply asked for a copy of the CD for their archives. We were covered and everyone was happy. BTW they later contacted me and told me that they really liked what we had done and that Irving Berlin would have approved. It usually goes that well,

Jeffrey 2007-01-18T18:20:22Z Tim http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#b3380af6-5fd2-4715-992d-b31159547994 2007-01-18T18:01:56Z 2007-01-18T18:01:56Z

> How 'bout we take your choreographies that you spent hours on, spent thousands on recording them, and just show them as backdrops when we perform? Why pay you or ask for your permission? Oh, this is a *perfect* analogy! Thanks Mark!

Tim 2007-01-18T18:01:56Z Sha' Vega http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#5d5477ac-f36d-4eea-8728-ccf6cf6c7e2e 2007-01-18T15:13:06Z 2007-01-18T15:13:06Z

Thanks for all the info Tim and Mark. It'll be very helpful to all who are asking this same question.

Sha' Vega 2007-01-18T15:13:06Z Jennifer Rose http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#ac1a13bd-59df-4ba0-ac3d-43022903dcb1 2007-01-18T14:00:48Z 2007-01-18T14:00:48Z

some the world, then run like blazes from them and don't use them. Ya mean that one Egyptian guy? ::grin::

Jennifer Rose 2007-01-18T14:00:48Z Mark http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#fa2f5e42-159b-4ef1-a2c8-acb23c84de94 2007-01-16T16:38:11Z 2007-01-16T16:37:36Z

I just joined this tribe and, therefore, am late on posting but have some information on some of this. Just about all sound recording is covered by copyright law. Compositions are covered until 70 years after the death of the composer. This time statute may also apply to sound recordings. If you want to play traditional folk stuff and record it, you are okay. If you use an already recorded version, obviously see above. Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey and most other countries have business alliances with SACEM and therefore are covered by the Berne conventions. There is a huge difference between playing a song for a class and using it to perform or record. You must get a license from the performer or publishing company to use a sound recording in that situation. If you are playing and/or wish to record a cover version, with luck you can contact Harry Fox Agency (HFA). SACERAU in Egypt charges a minimum of $1000 USD per song, think about that next time you perform to Aziza or Gamil, Gamel or Zaina. MESAM in Turkey is weirder, I think it is almost done on an individual basis. They finally told us 1000 Euros for a song after discussing it with the composer's family. We got lucky and got it through HFA with their connections in MESAM for $100. My wife is planning to do a more in depth article in the Gilded Serpent very soon. Tim brings up the very valid point of asking the artists. We've had several people and large performing troupes use our music without our permission and some who have used it after having permission withdrawn. And they have been insulting and disrespectful, like we only exist for them. How 'bout we take your choreographies that you spent hours on, spent thousands on recording them, and just show them as backdrops when we perform? Why pay you or ask for your permission?

Mark 2007-01-16T16:37:36Z Velvet Fifi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#4cc3fa13-d74c-4334-8f82-51f4c32e2e9c 2006-12-27T15:57:53Z 2006-12-27T15:57:53Z

Typically you join BMI and ASCAP and pay royalty fees for all performances (yes, all of them), and contact the producer of the music (listed on an album) for rights to use their music. depending on release of the DVD, etc, the royalty you pay may go up or down. Some artists just ask for recognition, some the world, then run like blazes from them and don't use them. Hope this helps.

Velvet Fifi 2006-12-27T15:57:53Z MEISSOUN http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#f32dd48b-250b-47ba-b32e-a36dc8696106 2006-12-26T21:32:07Z 2006-12-26T21:32:07Z

When I made my first DVD, I wanted to use music from Jalilah's Raks Sharki No 6. So I just asked the producers and they gave me their OK. I had to send them some copies and put their link on my website. Then I registered with the Swiss copyright association and had to pay a fee (that was not as much as expected) and that's it. The good thing is that my DVD is also copyright protected now! The thing I always wonder about: Why do people ask just about anybody advice - except the copyright associations/departments who can tell you how it actually is? What you need is not "I think" - "I heard" - "It's probably..." but hard facts. There are websites that will provide you with this information. I don't know the responsible organisation for the USA, but it can't be that hard to find on Google?

MEISSOUN 2006-12-26T21:32:07Z Tim http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#3880f6b9-b82b-48bd-93a3-0710e14b9ef3 2006-12-26T18:16:41Z 2006-12-26T18:16:41Z

> What about using "traditional" folkloric songs? You know, the ones on the CD that have no writer credit that say "traditional" behind them. I > think you might be okay using those as I think that Morocco may be referring to those types of songs when she wrote "public domain folk > music." No. The songs themselves may be in public, domain but the specific recordings of them are not, and companies own the rights to those recordings. The best way to use music in a video is simply to ask the musicians who recorded it. You might be pleasantly surprised at how many will say yes. If you're wanting to use something like BDSS music, or Hamza El Din, or Faruk Tekbiliek, you're going to have more problems, of course, but many independent musicians would be delighted to have their music featured on a DVD, and if they own the rights to the sound recording, may not charge you for it. There are standard rates for using recorded material; it's not just decided randomly. There should be plenty of information about this online. Brad Dosland is quite knowledgeable on these things, so hopefully, he will post something here...

Tim 2006-12-26T18:16:41Z Şteffi http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#cff823c8-bc16-4e59-b475-68f8197073a1 2006-12-26T16:04:58Z 2006-12-26T16:04:58Z

It may be an alternative avenue to ask independent musicians directly for permission to use their recordings. AFAIK, some musicians are willing to work with dancers for making performance and instructional DVDs.

Şteffi 2006-12-26T16:04:58Z Sha' Vega http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#916c4719-9fd6-47c7-a7ce-be655cdde232 2006-12-26T15:44:03Z 2006-12-26T15:44:03Z

What about using "traditional" folkloric songs? You know, the ones on the CD that have no writer credit that say "traditional" behind them. I think you might be okay using those as I think that Morocco may be referring to those types of songs when she wrote "public domain folk music." Kudos to you for your efforts on this!! I feel that it is the only fair way to go about making a DVD. There seems to be a rash of people in the BD community making performance DVDs of their local talent at those "Saturday night of a workshop weekend show" (who go unpaid), then selling it for profit. Not only are the dancers being lured into committing their intellectual properties to tape for free, the music that is taped gets used without licensing, permission or royalty fees getting paid to the somgwriters. As a former songwriter this gets my dander up, so again, kudos to you Maura!

Sha' Vega 2006-12-26T15:44:03Z Shira http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#e472c5cb-ba13-4395-bef3-285cc2993aaf 2006-12-25T19:18:47Z 2006-12-25T19:18:47Z

There was recently a whole thread about this on bhuz. Here's a link, if you're interested in seeing the discussion: http://www.bhuz.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23575 There is lots of complexity to this issue!

Shira 2006-12-25T19:18:47Z Maura http://bellydancebiz.tribe.net/thread/96d79ced-3f4e-44cc-b8f8-c4358cc19ac6#e2589b62-e8e0-411f-97ac-8c47026123ef 2006-12-25T18:57:49Z 2006-12-25T18:57:49Z

How do other dancers handle the issues of music copyrights? This is surfacing in my life because a publicity DVD was proposed by a videographer; his effort in return for learning something about taping a dancer ... but what about the music? This past week I sent an email to Morocco asking her if she'd ever written an article on music copyright and dancers. ' No & won't. NOT my purview & will not answer questions related to it ... ' says the divine Miss M. 'GET & USE public domain folk music - do NOT use anything still under copyright or you could be screwing yourself ... ' Well, there we are. As far as I can tell, there are NO sound recordings in the public domain in the US at this time (per http://www.pdinfo.com/ and similar). Songs, yes, recordings, no. I am trying to get as informed as possible before I contact the music licensing groups - I feel like I'm putting myself in the position of asking a dog if I need to give him a steak -- any thoughts? Experiences? Warnings? I'm now trying to follow up on royalty-free music avenue. Thanks.

Maura 2006-12-25T18:57:49Z