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Great article by Dondi on ethics in Gilded Serpent. Some of this stuff seems so common sense to me but apparently it's not so common as I've seen it happen over and over. Thoughts?
www.gildedserpent.com/cms/200...ecredit/
www.gildedserpent.com/cms/200...ecredit/
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Alabama
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Re: Giving Credit
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 6:42 PMRoz-
A very good article. I am working on an article about ethics in belly dance and it touches on some of this. I agree that it seems so common sense. Have you thought of this (?)--perhaps when a dancer or dancers continually copy another dancer or dancers it not only lacks of good ethics, common sense, etc., but it also shows a lack of the ability to come up with original material? I have given this a lot of thought lately and I think that is some of what happens in the belly dance world. And then also I believe that some dancers may just be complacent, which results in carbon copying. It does take A LOT of time to come up with totally original work and I know you know this...as does any dancer who has ever choreographed their own dances.
Shimmies!
ZD -
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Re: Giving Credit
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:24 PMI"ve seen a lot of this lately too. In fact a year ago, I got into a big brouhaha because I called out some local dancers doing just that for a big show. Before the days of youtube, it was a lot easier to get away with. But if you copy a routine or unique idea from youtube then have the balls to post your own video, someone is going to find you out sooner or later. I remember seen those Beata/copy cat clips awhile ago and while there were a few differences, it was clearly a case of copying. If you can't come up with your own material then A. Give Credit, or B. Don't dance.
Personally, I don't care for the Marilyn Monroe impersonation at all. As far as an impersonation it was clever, but I didn't think it enhanced the dances respectability. -
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Re: Giving Credit
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:29 PMNorma-
I also wasn't that impressed with the Marilyn thing...for one time it was novel...but not repeated over and over.
With so many intelligent women in belly dance it is surprising to me that so many don't or won't choreo their own dances. Personally, it's my preference....only because when I choreo something it "fits" me...whereas when I dance another's choreo it feels "not part of me". So, for me, choreographing my own material is an extension of myself so to speak. -
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Re: Giving Credit
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:45 PMExactly! I believe choreo is necessary when doing troupe or group type dancers. I also believe it's very important when teaching beginners. I even think choreo has it's own place among advanced and professional dancers to teach a different way of expressing a particular piece.
But once you get to the point of performing a piece in public, I want to see a dancer doing their own stuff.
I personally and am improv dancer so I rarely choregraph at all. I have a very hard time learning someone else's choreo because as you say, it doesn't fit me.
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Re: Giving Credit
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 9:44 AMRoz, you said "perhaps when a dancer or dancers continually copy another dancer or dancers it not only lacks of good ethics, common sense, etc., but it also shows a lack of the ability to come up with original material?"
I actually think it's just laziness.
It's just way easier to watch a dvd & copy choreography or combinations instead of having to dance your own & then write it all down in a notebook to remember later.
I think it's just that people are used to watching dvds too much and are NOT used to thinking & taking notes - plus taking the time & energy to rework it etc. etc. They COULD do it, they're just too lazy. -
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Re: Giving Credit
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 10:18 AMI agree with you, Anthea. It's hard work to come up with your own stuff - and a lot of people don't want to work that hard. I find it beyond irritating, though, that they then can't be bothered to credit a choreographer. Other dance genres do it all of the time - dancers aren't necessarily expected to automatically be good choreographers, and therefore use and CREDIT outside choreographers all the time in other genres.
I also think a lot of belly dancers don't ask themselves who THEY are as a dancer. They always want to be "like RB" or "like Suhaila" -- but rather than copy someone else's style/costuming/choreographies, why don't you figure out what works best for YOU? After all, the world already has one RB, Suhaila, etc...why do we need another??? -
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Re: Giving Credit
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 10:46 AMother disciplines use, credit and *pay* choreographers... but that's been discussed here before. I don't have a problem with dancers using choreos by others- it is a very different and distinct skill, apart from the skill of dancing itself, but yes, credit needs to be given. I don't know why we're all complaining about emulating other dancers tho- if you were not inspired by another dancer, why would we be learning any 'style' of dance at all? yes, I want folks to show independent thought & creativity, but that's how styles develop in the first place- by emulating dancers that you admire. why is it awful to copy Rachel Brice but a great compliment to be told you dance just like some traditional 'name' from elsewhere? in Dina's article, she has 2 clips too- one is obviously a direct copy, but the MM piece could have been inspired by Dondi's piece, or an independent inspiration- there have been numerous discussions on this on other boards like bhuz & I think it was Shira's tribe- don't really want to drag it all over here myself, but you can look them up & I agree. There is a difference between directly copying a choreo and being inspired by someone's style- it would be great if both were credited, but they would have to be credited in different ways. If done well, emulation should honestly speak for itself- do you need anyone to tell you that they were inspired by Rachel Brice? Or Dina, or Mahmoud Reda? maybe the gen pub or new dancers would need those clues, but would they care? I'd think those who care would know... -
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Re: Giving Credit
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 12:14 PMI don't disagree with you at all, Lara. :) But, I didn't mean merely being inspired by someone - we all are inspired by other dancers (hopefully). I meant flat-out copying - not even tweaking or putting your own spin on it. There is a difference, IMO. -
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Re: Giving Credit
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:00 PMI don't know; other dance forms expect mimicry and consider the execution of another's choreo to be an achievement.
Two years ago I was taught a dance by a Big Name dancer. I performed it at an area hafla making sure that credit was given (in fact, when dancer's submit info for this hafla they are specifically asked for choreographer info). I was proud of having learned a tough choreography and having performed it admirably.
Yet, when I look on YouTube I see dancers who have taken parts of the dance, disregarded harder parts of the dance, put in segments that ignore the music (which was composed specifically for this dance), loose track of the over all feel and just generally put their own stamp on it--to the detriment of the original dance. It bugs the heck out of me.
Use the choreography of great dancers!
Give them the credit they deserve!
Don't mess with their work--present it honestly or don't present it at all.
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Re: Giving Credit
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 9:45 PMI know of a rather big name dancer here in Australia that taught a choreography at her workshop that was straight off a dvd by a well known WDNY instructor. This struck me as hugely unethical, even on the off chance that she did get permission to use it.
I think it is just laziness.
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Re: Giving Credit
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 1:35 PMIs this article about ethics and giving credit where credit is due or is it about a specific dancer having copied Dondi and her friend?
I understand how the latter fits into the topic of ethics in the dance, but wouldn't it have been more effective to speak generally and give examples of this happening all over the community instead of pointing all fingers at the one person that the author has been personally affected/offended by?
I ask this not because I don't think Dondi has the right to be upset (if indeed this person is stealing her ideas without giving her proper credit, she has a good reason to be upset), but because from the title I was expecting something informative that more people could relate to, but instead it seemed more like a personal vendetta against the offending dancer.
Dondi is an admirably talented dancer. I'm just not sure I agree with her approach on the matter.
I think if that's how she chooses to deal with the issue, then so be it, but in that case I wish the article would have been titled accordingly, so that I would know that it's an article about *her* and not the community.
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Re: Giving Credit
Wed, November 4, 2009 - 7:42 PMI have no problems w/ people dancing material choreographed by other dancers if it was meant to be learned for public use. ex: A dancer performing one of Jillina's choreos that she has for public sale & use. But it really steams me when a performer gets on stage, has the orator anounce them and boast about them, and not one word of credit for the choregrapher. It was stated earlier, and I sooo agree, that creating choreography is a skill completely seperate from dancing. Jazz, Broadway, Ballet, & other dancers don't usually create their own dances but learn from a choreographer. I've worked on a few pieces (very beginner) and it has been mind boggling!! Choreographers should get special props!
Having said that, I _do_ think it tacky, and yes laziness, to watch and duplicate dances that are not meant to be duplicated. ex: Duplicating a performance video or something you've caught on u-tube. I've been guilty of doing it one time and it left me feeling kinda cheezy and a scam. I gave credit to the artist but still, it wasn't a dance meant for duplication so it just smacked too much of stealing. Never will do it again.
So the 2 no-no's that really seem to suggest crappy ethics/morals/taste/whatever are: 1.) Stealing material that was not meant for duplication. 2.) Taking credit for hardwork you didn't earn and not giving credit where it's due. -
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Re: Giving Credit
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 5:15 AMit's nice to hear appreciation for choreographers! it's SO not just stringing combinations together one after the other! -
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Re: Giving Credit
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 1:09 PMThat's SO true, Anthea!
Before I ever start choreo-ing a dance I listen to the music MANY times...then I let it speak to me...really many times when I hear a certain musical phrasing certain moves or staging ideas just come to mind. I LOVE to do it.
Also-a person choreographing a dance has to take into consideration the limitations and strengths of all who will be dancing the dance.
ZD -
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Re: Giving Credit
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:35 AMTHAT Is the hardest thing I think, maybe I've gotten better at it now, having to make them simple enough for my students; but I've had to (dare I say) dumb-down so many choreographies over the years - I can count on one hand the times I've been able to teach a 'regular' choreog. full-on. But it's kind of like trying to find someone else who fits perfectly in your clothes... :-) -
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Re: Giving Credit
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 5:32 PMAnthea-
I know what you mean...it is difficult to have to "dumb down" a choreo just because some don't practice and wouldn't be able to keep with up those who do. It seems to happen more than most people realize.
ZD
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Re: Giving Credit
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:52 PMEven before I started dancing, I've always been most entertained by choreo. I find the body flowing through structured intracacies (sp?) to be amazing and beautiful. Taking on the task of choreo recently has upped my respect and appreciation for choreographers/producers by 100%!!
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