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I know this isn't an original statement in the history of art business, and I'm going to try my best not to offend anyone, particularly the dancers in my area but here goes...
I am perplexed and frustrated by the difficulty in finding a place to get hired to dance here. Either the owners are very particular about what they want (style and look of dancers-"big boobs/pretty spakly girls")-which does't really get me all that enraged. Whatever, run your resturants how you want, it's the second category that really bug me. It's one woman getting paid for different time slots, to organize dancers, and the dancers recieving only tips. This happens in several resturants around town, and with a few different coordinators. Then there is also someone who puts dancers out after only a few months of classes, as "professionals" for $20-$30 an HOUR or more. SEVER UNDERCUTTING for standard rates anywhere, am I right?
All in all, it makes it feel rather impossible and riddiculous to get a paying job dancing here. I am a good dancer, and although I am still learning (who isn't?) I deserve to be paid to dance. And here's my catty side showing through but...I can follow music better than most of these dancers I keep seeing being coordinated to dance (I guess it's a little more laid back anyways, fairly much anyone can talk to whoever's coordinating, to dance), I have better stage presence, and I'm serious about what I'm doing. Maybe they are too, but I doubt many of them consider this their career of choice. Maybe noone else has a problem with all of this, but I do, and I don't understand as artists, and professionals how we can choose to undermine the importance of inner-community support, exterior presentation (i.e. the public doesn't know these arn't professionals dancing usually), and honest integrety.
Also, maybe I'm in a fairly small city compared to most large cities and the demand isn't as high for dancers, but I don't think moving would solve the problem would it? What do we do about this? Can we do anything? In the meantime, what should I do to maintain my professionalism, and get hired?
I am perplexed and frustrated by the difficulty in finding a place to get hired to dance here. Either the owners are very particular about what they want (style and look of dancers-"big boobs/pretty spakly girls")-which does't really get me all that enraged. Whatever, run your resturants how you want, it's the second category that really bug me. It's one woman getting paid for different time slots, to organize dancers, and the dancers recieving only tips. This happens in several resturants around town, and with a few different coordinators. Then there is also someone who puts dancers out after only a few months of classes, as "professionals" for $20-$30 an HOUR or more. SEVER UNDERCUTTING for standard rates anywhere, am I right?
All in all, it makes it feel rather impossible and riddiculous to get a paying job dancing here. I am a good dancer, and although I am still learning (who isn't?) I deserve to be paid to dance. And here's my catty side showing through but...I can follow music better than most of these dancers I keep seeing being coordinated to dance (I guess it's a little more laid back anyways, fairly much anyone can talk to whoever's coordinating, to dance), I have better stage presence, and I'm serious about what I'm doing. Maybe they are too, but I doubt many of them consider this their career of choice. Maybe noone else has a problem with all of this, but I do, and I don't understand as artists, and professionals how we can choose to undermine the importance of inner-community support, exterior presentation (i.e. the public doesn't know these arn't professionals dancing usually), and honest integrety.
Also, maybe I'm in a fairly small city compared to most large cities and the demand isn't as high for dancers, but I don't think moving would solve the problem would it? What do we do about this? Can we do anything? In the meantime, what should I do to maintain my professionalism, and get hired?
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Portland
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 5:25 AMI looked at your videos & your dancing's beautiful, you're right about having stage presence also - but your look isn't what I know as 'restaurant' though I have no idea what Seattle's clubs want in general. I can only speak from experience with old school nightclub dance experience, but your costumes in the videos don't have the right look for that, they look too student-y or tribal.
BUT, are you certain that there's several different co-ordinators at different restaurants who are scheduling the dancers & keeping their performance fee?? I can hardly wrap my head around that one - and yes, I think moving might solve that problem, as I've never heard of it before (outside of 'pimping'!). Or did I misunderstand something - ? -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 6:56 AMAnthea makes really good points about the costuming. I don't know what "standards" are in Portland for costuming, but in DC/Baltimore the Arab owned restaurants are looking for "sparkly" costuming and mostly looking for "Oriental" or "Cabaret" style dancing (which your first video was a lovely example of).
I HAVE heard of teachers essentially "pimping out" their students at way below market value. It hasn't happened a lot here, but it has happened. I've definitely heard of it in other areas- including New York and Sacremento CA. Morocco writes about it in her article www.casbahdance.org/ "If prices are up all over why are dancers getting less?" It's a fantastic article.
One thing that has helped our area immensely was starting a local yahoo group for all the dancers who are performing professionally and ethically minded. It helped create a community of support for professionalism and standards. At times it has addressed some difficult subjects, which can get "messy"...but the outcome of the group has been WONDERFUL. It helps to get some pro performers and teachers with long-term local area experience on board- and then invite the newer performers. A Yahoo group also has links sections- so for example you could post links to Shira's articles, Artemis' articles, my articles and any other business related article and offer it up as a subject for discussion.
Hope this helps!
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 6:57 AMIf it were a year or two ago, I'd say there was something going on, but NOW? The scene out there is very bad. Restaurants and clubs are closing left and right and those that are remaining are really pulling in their belts. Dance shows have been cut drastically and (for we musicians it's even worse). Things are real tough out there.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 9:36 AMTrue, and usually my costuming is much better, particularly in the video of me dancing with Negara, that costume was kind of a failed experiement with trying to go more simple...
But most resturants do want typical sparkly cabaret, and that's been hard because most of my costming and training is in Tribal/Neo-Tribal.
The coordinators arn't taking their performance fee, they were never guarenteed one to begin with. The dancers are basically dancing for tips. That's it. And the coordinators are hired/working with the resturant to book shows. I'm aware it's several at least at one resturant because different people host different nights of the month and put together their own line ups. -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 9:52 AMYour dancing is truly lovely. But if the restaurants are only hiring girls who have fancy imported costumes, that's what you'll need to wear. And if dancers are dancing for tips only, it may not be worth it. :( -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 12:47 PMI'm a tribal dancer, teacher, and director of a tribal troupe. Yet, for my restaurant gig, I wear the sparklies. They require it and I decided to comply. If I didn't comply, I'd be looking at a gig elsewhere... but I did choose to do it. Where I dance has lots of perks and the owners are super nice (and pay me well). I did start as a cabaret dancer way back when so I view it as returning to my roots.
I think that the restaurants have the choice of what they want as entertainment for their patrons and that's why they may have certain requests. And then you have the choice to do it or find another venue that would be more appropriate for your style.
For a while, our troupe would informally dance at a wine bar in town (it wasn't a gig) and tribal was well received there. I find that tribal is typically better received at alternative venues. Oftentimes, in restaurants, the diners actually expect you to be 'sparkly' and cabaret.
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"haflas" unfair to working dancers!
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 5:36 AMthat's the problem with having "hafla's" - really "shows" - on working nights in restaurants. What owner is gonna turn away free entertainment that they don't even have to coordinate? Hafla's or student show or whatever they are should be during the day if they HAVE to be in a restaurant. Better yet, have the "hafla's" somewhere else, and call it what it is, a "show". "!"
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 9:44 AMAs Samira said, most restaurants want the fancy, sparkly "cabaret" type costumes. But there are some venues that like the tribal look. Check out the "hipper" places that cater to the younger scene, maybe a hookah lounge if there is one.
Good luck. -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 9:32 PMI currently dance at a hookah lounge. While they're open to a tribal dancer, the costumes disappear in the dark atmosphere this particular hookah bar seems to enjoy. The dark atmosphere does make it kind of cozy (though I think perhaps it's a bit too dark in there), but it makes tribal costumes absolutely disappear. I'm in the process of making a costume with a white base for just that reason. I've noticed that anything but the most bright and neon colors tend to be muted out and the customers complain that they lose a lot of the more subtle movements. However, the other absolutely lovely dancer there, a cabaret dancer, shows up quite well in the dim lighting. The beads and other sparkling things on her costumes catch the light and it really calls attention to the dancer. Flash and sparkle seems to make a whole world of difference there, since you can actually see the dancer. I've seen several coffee houses that are also very dark and would present similar problems. It's not a bad place to work, just my experience with dark venues and dark costumes.
Also, it may just depend on your location. There isn't a large Middle Eastern population around here. However, it is a military town. I've noticed that there seems to be a correlation between being in a military town and the expectation of cabaret. I've heard a lot of questions and commentary about my costume because it isn't what they expect when they hear of a belly dancer. I'm still working and I've still got a job, however, cabaret seems more the look for this area, even with the more open minded venue.
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Re: Does anyone else... - Tribal in restaurants
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 4:06 PMMy wife's troupe (WildCard BellyDance) is all tribal (ATS) and they have several long-standing restaurant gigs ( including middle eastern, greek, italian and Indian). When they work with restaurant owners or new venues they are *very clear* about styles, costuming options and music sets/genres. They perform duets as opposed to solos, this and their costuming actually sets them apart considerably from the cabaret dancers.
Undercutting by non-professionals sucks, in a smaller city you might be able to get to know more of the community/teachers/pro dancers and have working agreements on minimum rates... in large cities... good luck.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 10:28 AMHave you thougth about breaking things open, elsewhere? Esp. for Tribal/Neo-Tribal (did you study w/Archer?), you might have to look outside the standard gigs. I'm mindful that Fat Chance, for example, found a space in SanFran that was Arabic-focused, yet open to their then-new derivation, and made it their "home space" for years, allowing them a regular paying gig to study and work in front of.
You may want to find a space -- a club, coffeeshop, etc -- with a performance space that's used to paying a band, and see what you can work up. It's you opening up new spaces in the city, rather than trying to tread on the easy, yet fought-over ground that sounds rather...infertile for your art.
So far as your anger, trust me, I share it, and have written about it for years, now. At the same time, the best cure for such anger is to go make something so kick-ass, they end up jealous of you!
Does that make sense?
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 10:40 AMWell, I am afraid I have to report that the rates you quote are typical of the Northwest. It is usually $30 a night plus tips. I think its ridiculous, but as long as the torch keeps getting passed with that being acceptable, it will continue in that vein.
For tribal/neo tribal, do not expect to get a slot at the regular restaurants. As others have already said, they want the fantasy of sparkly, chiffon, etc. Tribal doesn't fit into it. You need to peddle yourself to some new and unique places, and there are lots to try. Don't limit yourself. Try coffee houses (northwest has some great ones, and Portland especially, that are very arty, creative, have live music and such), restaurants, and local festivals (Saturday Market, for instance). You're not a typical style dancer, so why expect to dance at a typical dance venue? -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 11:15 AMHere in San Francisco, tribal dancers appear at alterntaive dance clubs, maybe teach a class before the dj starts. Fat Chance's student troupe would do some charity gigs like entertaining at the end of a race that was fundraising for a charity.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 11:25 AMYes, Portland is such a cool place I think you might do well trying to get yourself in somewhere unconventional. Here in DC, tribal dancers have started their own monthly shows at places like a sideshow bar & a place that refers to itself as a "rock & roll lounge." There's another place here that is (depending on the night) a gay bar, a lesbian bar or just kind of an urban hipster place that hires edgy dancers, too. I think the options are either buying a fancy cabaret costume or trying to set out on your own path... which I'd think would be a really fun challenge.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 9:32 PM<You're not a typical style dancer, so why expect to dance at a typical dance venue? >
Very nicely put. I like that, and it's true...perhaps better in some ways too...?
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 1:03 PMI feel your pain. After having lived and performed in a major city, I find that it is difficult to demand the same rates that I got in the city now that I live in a resort town. Where there are NO resturants geared toward belly dancers.
But I must say I belonged to a troupe. And after I found out that the head of the troupe was getting paid for the gigs we were showing up to and I did not see any of that money. I quit the troupe.
I feel that she was telling them that they could get a hour show paying for the rates for a single professional dancer showing up. I feel that she made herself feel better by telling herself that she was a pro so they were getting a pro dancer. And that the rest of us where getting the privliage of experience. Which would have been O.K. maybe if she explained that to the troupe. And in my case I consider myself a professional dancer. So if the situation was explained to me. I would have declined dancing.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, March 26, 2009 - 9:30 PMThanks for the thoughts everbody, yes Woodrow that would be with my lovely Jane :] What a fantastic woman, dancer, teacher, and more!
I actully had a private with her today and alot of these issues came up for disscussion, both tempering my view (allright, I could maybe see how it is possible these things started to happen, even if it isn't fair they are happening), and lighting some ideas about where to take my dance.
I think you are all right in saying that I will have to traverse a different path unless I want to comform to the standard...and I guess this is going to take some work in learning how to promot myself and really tell businesses why they want me (I'm working on that whole being able to confidently talk to people in a business way...). I've also got some ideas roaming around now about organizing some events specially geared towards connecting more of the Portland dance community, so that the Tribal-Oriental rift isn't so wide as it is...but more on that later.
Someone also suggested Saturday Market too? I've thought about that, and I know some violinists I've been wanting to work with, but the schedualing for that is really difficult, and I'm not sure I feel comfortable dancing their anyways...at least not without a body guard friend. I have been interested in some of the renfaires though, someone suggested to me last fall and now that I have a car.... -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 2:50 AMhey tricia, i don't think we've met, but i was in pdx for 5 years. i like where this thread went. do your own thing.
i remember downtown there were several rock clubs that did/would/could have a bellydancer between band sets. it's usually A LOT better than watching the roadies set up drums/amps. also, aziza had set up a weekly gig as a break for a regular act, etc... best of luck...
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Fri, March 27, 2009 - 10:30 PMMy only advice would be to possibly approach the various owners and talk to them upfront. Explain why you charge more - that you get what you pay for, and that a better belly dancer will attract a better audience, as well as make the owners look like they know what they are talking about. It's a gutsy move, but it's the only thing you can really "do" about it. It may very well backfire, but if you aren't getting hired anyway . . .
Also, just for the purpose of shits and giggles, check out this article by Morocco: www.casbahdance.org/PRICEUP.htm
And check this one out too. www.shemsdance.com/event/event.htm
You could also try having a meeting with the other dancers. If you all raise prices together, you all benefit. Decide, based on the world involved, time to get ready, materials used, etc. what you are willing to be payed.
Personally, I don't even get dressed for less than $80.00.
I have that same problem here. There are not many venues, and the owners are particular, and other dancers undercut. Not so much here, though. The going rate for dancing for half an hour and being present for an hour is $40.00. -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 2:49 AMThat's outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bellygrams are 50 bucks minimum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In town, no out of town driving!!!!!!!!!! A bellygram is 10-15 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 12:01 PMWell, and I was just quoted by one resturant that their standard payments at $30 for amature, and $50 for experienced dancers (I didn't quite get how long of sets they expected for this price though, I expect about 20-30 minutes based on the audition they had me do.)
I'm coming to understand as well that resturants are not going to may as much as other hired events (such as Bellygrams, weddings, parties, what have you)...because they can not afford to pay multipul dancers full going rates along with all their other business expenses? (Though I think pricing some places should be negotable...like the place I just audition, is HUGE, I'm not sure what kind of crowd they are usually bringing in, but if they have enough money for that kind of place...I would assume they could afford to pay a little more, is that unreasonable? Are those rates a little more than average?) -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Sat, March 28, 2009 - 2:59 PMTricia - this is a rather timely post for me as my husband and I have been discussing moving back to the Pacific Northwest. I see now that I would be taking a DRASTIC pay cut for my dancing - I routinely get $60 per 20 minute set with a 2 set minimum and bellygrams start at $100. I have the hard work of local dancers who did the tough thing by rejecting low paying jobs to help raise the base price in our area to thank for this. I really like the suggestion of starting a yahoo group to give area dancers a 'touchstone' and hopefully begin working together to raise wages and working standards across the board. If you're bothered by your local situation, you most likely are not alone.
I'd also like to recommend you create a 'press kit' - include a dvd with performances from different types of venues (stage, hafla's, any that include some audience interaction) and performances of different genres (since you do perform both Cabaret and Tribal). Include a calendar of up-coming events and invite perspective employers to attend your performances instead of auditioning. At best, you might get paid for audition and at worst you've just given an evening of free entertainment away.
Best of luck and many blessings. -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Thu, April 2, 2009 - 9:48 PMI second the press kit idea. Give them an opportunity to see that they get what they're paying for. If they see photos of you dancing in a full venue with a happy audience, that will look good for you. If they see a video of you dancing and interacting well with your audience, that's a selling point too. Who knows, you may entirely wow them with a tribal set and they'll decide to take a chance on something other than the cabaret they tend towards already. If they see that you're particularly good at engaging the audience, perhaps they'll be more willing to take a chance on you because their customers will react well to you. If they see you as a positive addition to their business, they'll be more likely to work with you. While there are a lot of places unwilling to pay more for better services and better end results, there are enough that would view having a more qualified dancer as a better opportunity, so you may be able to get your foot in the door that way.
I wish you a whole lot of luck in finding a venue to perform at local to your area. The suggestions given earlier of looking at alternative venues or places with a more hip feel are definitely great. Even if you don't immediately find your niche, you may find a small venue that will give you exposure if nothing else. You may just have the perfect opportunity fall in your lap because someone just happened to be at the right place at the right time. Just keep trying, and good luck to you!
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 3:05 PMActually BellyGrams in the Denver/boulder area start at $100 and most charge $125. If we travel or need to prep more (such as bringing a snake) then we charge more.
Restaurants start at $65 for one set --- some still pay the old rate at $50 but only if it is regular and you know you will dance more. Most of the restaurants are paying more now.
The idea of $20-30 an hour...that is nuts! Really those dancers are not only devaluing the dance but not feeling that their own art form is worth the payment. Crazy.... -
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 3:08 PMAlso...the idea of putting girls out there so soon. To me that is part of the huge issue that we as bellydancers struggle with so much. All other dance forms study for years and perform in student shows until they are pros. This putting out a newbie so soon actually ads to the idea that bellydance is easy and can be learned (to a performance level) in a few weeks. It takes as much training as any other dance form....we call it the 6 week wonder here......usually they fade quick bc owners end up realizing that they are not ready to support a crowd or a show formally.
I actually have a wonderful advanced class that I am working with performance technique now....I am lucky to have a group of girls that really understand how much work it is and want to learn the ropes (including performance and community standards).
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Mon, April 6, 2009 - 8:21 AMI agree that $50 for a bellygram is outrageous - but I'm thinking the dancer should charge twice as much - more like $100.
When I lived in California, I delivered bellygrams for a couple of different agencies, and I think they charged the client $100 for a 10-15 minute bellygram. (Of course, they paid me a piece of that and kept an agency fee, which was fine with me - agencies deserve a fair cut.)
Although you're right that a bellygram is only 10-15 minutes, there's also the hour ahead of time that it takes to put on the costume and makeup. I currently live in a small city (population around 80,000), and in-town gigs still require a half hour of driving - 15 minutes each way. Also, remember that entertaining for someone's function entails providing a professional service, and a professional deserves to be paid professional rates.
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Re: Does anyone else find this unfair?
Mon, March 30, 2009 - 4:21 PMNot every area has the same standard pay rate. I would find out from other dancers are getting paid. And decide what you are worth.
Here is a site that shows the going rates for diffrent parts of the country. As you can see it can vary alot.
www.samirashuruk.com/standar...ist.html
