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Ok, this post may be out of place. If it is please delete it or let me know and if I can,I will.
There is no one in my area interested in teaching ATS. This is within a 400 mile radius. Partly because I think it's a vicious cycle of no available teachers and partly because they haven't been really exposed to it.
I did find a lady in Ft Worth, whom I'm meeting at Tribal Alchemy for Sooz's class. So I know "I" can find guidance.
But that still leaves no one here in Tyler. I've called 3 studios, who are somewhat interested, but I'd have to teach.
Originally, I thought I'd be the student. Then I thought, just gather them, but where? Now it's snowballing into teaching just to get steady dance partners.
Is this how teachers are born made?
And the business part comes in at- I'd get paid, when I was willing to do it for free, only the logistics of a place to practice and insurance for mishaps came into play.
Any advice, suggestions, encouragement would be helpfull and appreciated. This will probably be cross posted in the teaching forum.
And no, I haven't been studying ATS for long. Cabaret is all that's available here. But I am ridiculously self motivated, organized, and disciplined.
The studios' interest came while I was looking for teachers and shopping in their boutiques.
There is no one in my area interested in teaching ATS. This is within a 400 mile radius. Partly because I think it's a vicious cycle of no available teachers and partly because they haven't been really exposed to it.
I did find a lady in Ft Worth, whom I'm meeting at Tribal Alchemy for Sooz's class. So I know "I" can find guidance.
But that still leaves no one here in Tyler. I've called 3 studios, who are somewhat interested, but I'd have to teach.
Originally, I thought I'd be the student. Then I thought, just gather them, but where? Now it's snowballing into teaching just to get steady dance partners.
Is this how teachers are born made?
And the business part comes in at- I'd get paid, when I was willing to do it for free, only the logistics of a place to practice and insurance for mishaps came into play.
Any advice, suggestions, encouragement would be helpfull and appreciated. This will probably be cross posted in the teaching forum.
And no, I haven't been studying ATS for long. Cabaret is all that's available here. But I am ridiculously self motivated, organized, and disciplined.
The studios' interest came while I was looking for teachers and shopping in their boutiques.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sat, October 17, 2009 - 11:44 AM"Is this how teachers are born made?"
From my own experience and from many on others on tribe( most who chose to post to me off list for fear of being roasted to a crisp)
Yes, it is.
Be prepared to have a lot of people discourage you. For some reason, this topic really sets people off. If we all waited until we had approval( gods know from whom that might come) no one would ever start teaching. Oh there are legitimate concerns, safety, proper technique being taught, standards( whose though might be harder to define) being maintained etc. but I choose to believe that most people begin to teach out of a sincere love for the dance and to fill a void that no one else is willing or able to fill, just like you.
I found myself in a similar spot and decided to fill the void. Like you I had some concerns and brought them to my sisters here on tribe, and I got vilified and slammed for daring to suggest that because there was no one else to teach and that I had some knowledge( four years of study with various teachers and at one point four classes a week) and was willing to learn as I went that I was qualified to teach at all. Be prepared for the onslaught. I suggested in my original post that some of us do not have the resources or opportunities to study under pros and achieve 'approved' teaching qualifications and that those facts should not stop us from teaching anyway. I was careful to add that all teachers have a responsibility to continue their own education and to make the most of the opportunities that they do have in order to expand and improve their own skills. I stand by what I said and after about a year of classes my students are happy and progressing.
There has been a lot of talk here and elsewhere about bad teaching and people teaching too soon in order to feed their egos but honestly how long do you think truly bad teachers hold on to anyone? If people aren't getting something of value from a class they will not return so it's a self limiting system really. If they are getting something from the class then obviously the teacher is offering something they need even if you don't like it or feel they aren't qualified etc. We all need to stop trying to be the belly police and concentrate on being the best dancers/teachers we can be ourselves and the rest will take care of itself. Not all of us are on the same level, we never will be, it OK, get over it.
That said, the title of your post really says it all, "Ethical Teaching". For me it's about being honest about what you're offering, your own training, experience and qualifications. For example, if you've only been doing ATS in your living room from DVDS for a few months(not that this is the case, just for example) and you've been honest about that with the places who are offering you teaching space and they are still offering it, you have to wonder why they are so hot to offer you a space when you really aren't qualified to teach yet. It's their ethics that are questionable in that case. Your judgment might be a bit off but you were up front about what you were bringing to the table.
Ethics is about being honest with yourself first and then with others. It's also about calling people on their crap and doing a bit of digging when your alarm bells go off. The above situation should set off those bells. Someone with underdeveloped ethics would tell themselves, "Well, they are offering me a space so I must be qualified..." When, if they being honest with themselves first( remember that? )they'd know something was fishy.
So you've been honest, with yourself, with your studio and students and still feel ready to teach. Great. You mentioned you have searched out a mentor, good, next step done. You are obviously concerned about doing the best you can with what you have and in improving as you are able or you wouldn't have posted here, from where I'm sitting you have all your ducks in a row for a great teaching experience. Be well prepared and flexible and you'll do great. Don't let the haters stop you.
Lav
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sat, October 17, 2009 - 8:38 PMLav i remember your post...
Being in a similar situation in a small town with limited access to professionals..i agree with everything you have said.
Regardless of experience, intention is key. The intention to do right by the dance, preserve the integrity in any way you can, being honest with students, being honest with your self and your own limitations, promoting safety, and the intention to continue to grow and learn yourself when the opportunity arrives (or create your own opportunities).
This kind of post will stimulate spirited debate..that is true. In the end, do you love this dance? Do you want to share the joy of it with others? Can you be honest and critical of yourself and you abilities and acknowledge your limitations? Will you do what it takes to maximize your potential and enhance your knowledge for the sake of your students? Are you committed to do what you need to to maintain integrity, be professional, be safe?
That is generally what it all comes down to...
Keep looking and searching and reading- take the support you get, take any criticism as constructive (try not to take it personally).
Good luck!
meg
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 11:18 AMIt seems many of us have taken different paths to becoming teachers. I think continued guidance as you mentioned here would be great. Go to workshops and continue your education and pay attention to your students form....often it teaches you a lot about your own form. I agree with Meg about promoting safety and correct posture (very important). I also agree with the idea of intention in what you are teaching and your own experience level.
I think many teachers get concerned about general form being taught correctly and/or people teaching levels that may be they have not mastered .... but again....just be honest and promote safety.
Also...one thing I did as I began was to get feedback from my students (some of who had taken from others)...it was very good to do. I also did ask for guidance from my own teacher. Both will help you grow as a dance student and teacher....just keep you mind open to feedback.
good luck
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 2:52 PMWhile this may be how some teachers are born, that is not how it should be. I do not think that one should teach, regardless of the lack of teachers, until you are truly capable of giving your students the education the deserve.
Are you aware of the breakdown of the movements? How to use the proper muscles, where they are, and how to prevent injury? Proper body placement and posturing? Can you give them background information on the evolution and history of this art form? Proper education in ethics and troubleshooting? Performance skills and expression, or things like music selection and improvisation? And with American tribal style in particular, what about the formations and cues? That's probably the most critical element.
I don't think there's anything wrong with offering informal lessons to others in your area who are interested, in light of the "dance partners" idea - IF you make it clear to them that you are not a professional instructor and are only filling a gap. And while self motivation and discipline is important and admirable, that doesn't mean you have the proper knowledge to offer formal instruction. You'll be cheating your students if they come into your class expecting a professional instructor who is well versed in tribal style.
My suggestions would be to host tribal teachers from other areas, study tribal videos religiously, practice until you collapse into a heap and cry and further your own education in any way possible until you DO have a solid foundation in tribal style. If you can accomplish that - more power to you. Good luck! -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 1:47 PM"While this may be how some teachers are born, that is not how it should be. I do not think that one should teach, regardless of the lack of teachers, until you are truly capable of giving your students the education the deserve."
THIS! Just because this is how it often happens doesn't mean that is how teachers should be "made".
"I don't think there's anything wrong with offering informal lessons to others in your area who are interested, in light of the "dance partners" idea - IF you make it clear to them that you are not a professional instructor and are only filling a gap."
This I disagree with, but only because I feel there is a better option to "teaching" in any capacity. Instead you can become a facilitator to a study group! Find other dancers interested in the dance, and meet once a week, or once every other week, or once a month--whatever works best for everyone. Meet at someone's house, or if the group is too large or no space appropriate, chip in $ to rent a space together. Then everyone take turns bringing a lesson, a video, something to share with the group. Then everyone explores that concept together, and end with some jam time. Keep rotating the responsibility of bringing the lesson (don't let people just be hangers on--everyone needs to contribute, so no one becomes a de-facto teacher or leader. Keep it equal and democratic as much as possible)
You can make it even more fun by rotating a snack-master! Or a wine master! Everyone takes a turn bringing a nibble or a drink to share with the group.
As it grows, you can pool your energies and finances to host instructors in your town, sharing the financial burden and everyone benefiting from the chance to study with a professional teacher. You could put on community haflas or parties, and other networking opportunities. The possibilities are endless. So no one is a teacher, it isn't a troupe...it's a collective, if you will. Everyone contributes, everyone benefits.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 3:35 PMYou have all been very helpful.
I need to hear the pros and the cons.
Definately don't want to start I fire storm.
But I did bring this here for guidance and an open discussion about all the encompassing aspects.
I do feel as though this post was misplaced, but only because it's emphasis was on "teaching."
I just returned from Tribal Alchemy, so I need to rest and then will repost in the teaching forum.
The thread might should stay up for any other dancers deliberating on teaching.
I'm not closing the discussion. All of your experience is vital for guidance.
And thank you for taking the time to respond!
Soleil
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Statistically speaking...
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 4:12 PMLooking at Shira's website at
shira.net/polls/learning.htm
(click on View Results button if you don;t want to vote)
20% of the respondents are learning to belly dance by taking group or private lessons with a teacher. I assume these classes include all the classes taught at various locations by folks with little training themselves.
20% are learning from videos.
20% are copying what they see.
5% were learning from a book.
35% were 'none of the above' (not studying dance?)
In short, the percentage of people who were studying with a teacher of any skill level was a minority. If this study reflects reality, lessons and classes from a teacher of any kind is NOT the usual way people learn.
FYI. I am not drawing any conclusions from this. -
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Re: Statistically speaking...
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 8:00 PMOh my goodness!
This is a horrible statistic. -
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Re: Statistically speaking...
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:38 AMI cannot admit to being dismayed, just surprised, and I didn't post the statistics from Shira.net to cause dismay. I do think it is good to have some numbers in order to keep expectations realistic.
Assuming that many of the poll respondents are in the Americas and Great Britain, then what is happening is similar to what we hear happens in the Middle East, which is - folks don't take lessons to learn how to dance, they learn it from the context in which they live. I recall that the cook at a restaurant my daughter was performing at got nearly got fired because she wouldn't stop watching the monitor trained on the area where the customers were seated; she was trying to learn new moves to take to the club she liked to go to. The thought of taking lessons was foreign to her, but knowing how to dance was so important that she was willing to risk her job. This weekend, we had Athena Najat in L'ville and she said that in Greece the idea of going to a teacher to learn tsiftetelli (greek word for belly dance) is still considered an odd notion to many - tsiftetelli is something they just do.
So if belly dance in the Americas is being learned in a way similar to that in the middle-east and asia minor, what is the problem?
I think we can agree that there is a difference between social dancing and teaching/performing, if only because the professionals-to-be need to know how to make their bodies hold up. But in a culture where kids are teaching themselves and each other dances that include somersaults in the air and balancing on their arms only, telling them that they have to go to a 'real' teacher in order to learn something as 'tame' as belly dance is probably going to be brushed off. So how to deal with it?
Well, being cognizant is my first step. Most of the belly dancing seems to be done in a social context. People who go to 'real' teachers are in the minority. Contemplating the statistics caused an paradigm shift in how I view 'the business' and that, from a business point of view, is a Good Thing.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 8:35 PMHi there,
My teacher (I know she's on this tribe so she might reply herself ) had very similar circumstances when she started teaching. I don't know the origin story first hand, so to put it simply, she had experience in oriental style, then a teacher at that oriental school started offering ATS, only to then shortly after leave to move a long way away. For whatever reason, My (now) Teacher had the most experience so the roll of teacher kind of defaulted to her. She then left that original school and had to start building her student base all over again in order to just have a group to dance with.
This is kinda when I started taking her classes.
I hope she does put in her thoughts on this thread, because I know it hasn't been easy for her, for various reasons. I know it took close to two years to get our troupe together with an acceptable skill base to be performing at student / community venues. But although she started with very little, she has since attained her general skills certificate, and will be attending the ATS teacher training at the end of this month.
my advice to you would be, stay confident :) students can pick up on insecurities and it is off putting. Don't do it for free, use the money made to help fund you getting your teacher training.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 11:11 PM<sarcasm> Hi, I know a bit of Hula, like 4 choreographies and a few of the meanings of maybe a dozen of the movements. .... I was just wondering... there is like no one within 500 miles of where I live that teaches Hula, but some people have asked me if I could start teaching Hula at the local dance studio. So I'm thinking, this would be a good idea, right? I'm sure no one in the Hula community would mind at all, since there is no one qualified in my area?
Yeah, so my answer, is a flat NO. To teach something means you must KNOW what you are teaching. If I take a year or two of ballet and then claim to be a ballet teacher, I'm going to get laughed right out of my toe shoes. Why on EARTH is bellydance any different? Whether tribal or cabaret, this is a HUGE problem in our dance world right now. There are simply no standards, no guidelines, no discipline, ...and it is making dancers and teachers that have no idea what they are doing, and this gives us ALL a bad name.
My advice, go LEARN Tribal dance first. I know you said there is no one to teach in your area. At least get a few DVDs, go to a workshop or two, something. You simply must know what you are doing in order to be fair to the students who will be giving you their hard earned money to learn something. Can you honestly take money from people if you have nothing of value to give them in return? -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 1:58 AMNo vilifying here!
I think those of us who did have a good source of honest feedback can find it hard to relate to someone who is in love with this dance, but doesn't have a solid support system in the area. And while not everyone goes to classes and learns from a live teacher, there is a lot to be said for having another human give you feedback and encouragement.
I asked my teacher (who's opinion I definitely could trust) whether she thought I was ready to teach. And that wasn't too long after I started dancing so I had reservations about it. But she gave me the go ahead and a whole new world of learning opened up for me as a result. I do many other dance styles as well: various Central Asian styles, Turkish folk, Persian, and while I feel just as comfortable performing them as I do Belly Dance, I don't yet feel I'm ready to teach those styles. So I stick with Egyptian Belly Dance and Gothic Belly Dance for now. When the time comes, I know I can go to my teacher and ask her which of those styles she feels I am ready to teach.
Here's how I would approach it before attempting to teach:
1. Ask yourself what you really want. Do you WANT to teach or are you just looking for people to dance with? Teaching requires not only a solid knowledge of technique, history, music and the desire to share the art form with others, but also the willingness and ability to take the time to break this dance down to its most basic parts and communicate those parts to people who all may learn in completely different ways and at different speeds.
Some people can see a movement and do it from the start. Some people are aural learners. Some people take awhile to get a movement, but once it's in their muscle memory, it's like they've been doing it for years. Do you have ideas as to how you can teach all of those people with only an hour or two a week to do it?
Loving the dance in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean you can teach it effectively. But it;s a good start!
If you REALLY want to teach sit down and think about how you would go about it. What is your movement repertoire like? How is your posture? Your arms? You don't have to be PERFECT to teach because no one is perfect. We all still have things we can learn and improve upon. But do you feel you have the background to share it? And be honest with yourself! Don't be overly critical, but really take as objective a view as possible of your own dancing.
2. If you have a hard time looking at your dancing objectively, try finding a teacher who's abilities you like and who's opinion you feel you can trust and see if she will give you a critique. Some teachers will accept videos as well for critique. The one who comes to mind right off the bat is Amaya in New Mexico (any corrections to that?). But you may be able to find someone well versed in ATS who is willing to do it. Even a non-ATS teacher can help because the base movements are the same.
3. What is available in your area? Are there dancers already in the area who may also be interested in learning ATS? Can you rally them somehow to join you?
4. If you don't feel you are ready to teach try contacting one (or all) of the studios and tell them you are interested in starting a club of sorts. See if they have a rental rate for their teachers and tell them you would like to have a regular "gathering," of people who are interested in learning. Set a minimum number of people you'd like to come in each week and have them chip in to pay the rent.
This way, while you are technically teaching others, you aren't promoting yourself as a "pro," teacher. And it will also keep the door open for the people who join you to bring their ideas and knowledge to the table. It's more a learning circle.
5. Post where ever you can in your area to get people in and learning and try to find a studio that will advertise for you (whether you teach or have a "club."). Whether you teach or not, the studio will be making money and may see that your time with them is worthy of advertisement.
I hope this helps some!
Taletha -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 11:38 AMTaletha has a very good suggestion here IMO. If your motivation is to learn and have dance partners in the absence of a teacher, then get together other interested women and pool your money for DVDs to work through together, take group trips to workshops, devise your own ways to apply what you are learning. If you have enough interested dancers, you can sponsor an instructor to come to you for a workshop.
Teaching involves a wide variety of skills the least of which is having a few more moves that the person you are instructing. That day may come for you, but there are many more relevant dance experiences for you at this point in your learning.
Good luck!
Mahin -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:33 AMI agree with this too. Keep your motivation in mind & don't worry about what the studios want. You want dance partners, not to teach professionally... two different things.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 11:42 AMI agree Taletha.
I am one that does really feel someone should not teach until they have master the dance but also realize that I live in an area that has many many teachers -- so my situation is different and it would be hard to be in an area and just not be able to learn unless you have the resources. That would be tough so trying to consider that one too. I took lessons and performed before beginning teaching -- took for around 5-6 years with two local teachers and a number of random privates/workshops. But...I do not want to discourage someone from pursuing their goals --- I do think that mastering posture and safety is a must first (but can be done with guidance and feedback).
I agree with all your points....I do think getting someone to guide you (even if the style is a different one -- they can still help with general form). It is very true...the art of dance and teaching are not the same. One may be great at the dance but not good at breaking it down....that is a skill within itself.
Also...see about yoga, ballet, jazz, or modern which will help gain more knowledge and muscle control in bellydance also....this can also help.
Again....I do feel most are just concerned with keeping our dance at a professional standard (which I am in total agreement) but also when replying here, I tried to think about 'humm what would you do if you wanted to learn but only had video access'. The video feedback option is a great one.... -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 1:59 PMQuote: One may be great at the dance but not good at breaking it down....that is a skill within itself.
Conversely, one may be only so-so at the dance but great at breaking it down...because teaching is a skill w/in itself.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 12:34 PMI really appreciate everyone's attitude and responses.
There are so many things to consider. That's why I brought it here.
Let me clarify by saying that; I'm a long way from teaching. Teaching was never in my mind, studying under someone was. I'm not opposed to it, just starting to "consider" it.
Your input is invaluable.
Thanks,
Soleil -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:04 PMPlease please please, if you do decide to teach at some point, charge the same as all the other teachers in your area. Don't charge less than the going rate just because you feel you don't have the same amount of experience as other local teachers.
On a note about teaching ATS, get really good at the group improv portion of the dance as well as the moves, following and leading. I've seen it before in other teachers who want to expand their repetoire of classes. Just because they know the ATS moves doesn't mean they can teach and perform the group improvisational aspect.
Good luck on your journeys.
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Re: Ethical teaching
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:45 AMI really like Taletha and Shay's encouragment keep it non-professional, to approach the studios with renting and gathering to practice, to take the pressure off going the whole nine yards when I'm not ready.
I'm visiting Harvest Moon Studio's hafla November 21 to meet more dancers in my area and 3rd Coast Tribal in January.
Since the non belly dance studios here are interested, I know eventually dancers will learn of it here too. This gives me time to focus on my technique, which while I practice 1-3 hours a day, with no feedback, still needs work. Until I get take more chances to dance with other dancers, I'll still just be a dancer alone. So basically my involvement with other dancers is up to me.
Build it (a collective) and they will come.
There are several opportunities in 2010 to get my GS, I will avail myself of one.
Thank you ladies for your wisdom,
Soleil
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:13 PMIf you are looking for tribal and specifically ATS instruction....you did not look hard enough to find a qualified teacher in the Dallas and Fort Worth area.
There are three in DFW that I can name off the top of my head and all are willing to travel.
*Brandy Bollin of Tribal Evolution has come out to Tyler to teach at Desdemona's studio before and I know she could be hired for workshops - www.tribalevolution.com - there are also a number of ladies in her troupe that can teach basic ATS
* Brandy Welborn of BellaNatana teaches in FW at crescent moon studio and was a host of Tribal Alchemy
* Trudi Buchanan of Mansfield teaches
* The Brazzen Bellie group teaches in Arlington and are all students of Brandy Bollin.
I would highly suggest you contact one fo them and not go at it alone without proper instruction. -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:27 PMThanks Yeli, I did meet Brandy of Bella Nantana at Tribal Alchemy and many other ladies who have their GS.
My post was not so much about "me" being able to find instruction, but more about feeling pressured from within and without here in Tyler, in my attempt to find regular dance partners here.
There are numerous studios in Houston, Shreveport, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Birmingham(my birthplace), and the DFW metroplex that I am aware of to further my training. -
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Re: Ethical teaching
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:43 PMI most certainly DO NOT want to forget Longview , a neighboring town. That is where Harvest Moon Studio is and I will be meeting them at their hafla next month.
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